What does it take to be successful?
Text: Proverbs 14:4
Hosts:
J. Kent Edwards
Vicki Hitzges
Nathan Norman
Narrator: Brian French
The CrossTalk Podcast is a production of CrossTalk Global, equipping biblical communicators, so every culture hears God’s voice. To find out more, or to support the work of this ministry please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org
Produced by Nathan James Norman/Untold Podcast Production
© 2026 CrossTalk Global
Brian: MUSIC. While everyone you know wants to succeed in life, not everyone does. Some think the secret of success is determined at birth. Does success come automatically to those born with great advantages such as wealth, a wonderful singing voice, great physical strength, or beauty? Not often. Cornelius Vanderbilt built one of the greatest fortunes in U.S. history. But because his heirs preferred spending to working, his assets and their opportunities were squandered on lavish estates and gambling. Amy Winehouse was celebrated for her once-in-a-generation soulful voice and multiple Grammy Awards. Yet her life was ravaged by addiction and media scrutiny. She died tragically at age 27. Mike Tyson was regarded as one of the most physically dominant heavyweight boxers in history, earning an estimated $300 million over his career. But his career and personal finances collapsed because of legal troubles. Addiction, reckless spending, and bankruptcy. Marilyn Monroe is perhaps the ultimate symbol of someone who seemed to have it all. While she conquered Hollywood and became the face of a generation, she felt misunderstood and frequently struggled with her mental health, anxiety, and addiction before her tragic premature death at age 36. The fact is The assets you are born with do not guarantee success. We all know people born in the humblest circumstances can and have, by any measure, succeeded in life. As author Michael Lim notes, historically successful achievers have been driven by a clear sense of purpose and relentless perseverance. And I think King Solomon would have agreed. Join Vicki Hitzges, Nathan Norman, and Kent Edwards as they rediscover King Solomon's secret to successful living in Proverbs chapter 14, verse 4. Welcome to Crosstalk, a Christian podcast whose goal is for us to encourage each other to not only increase our knowledge of the Bible but to take the next step beyond information into transformation. Our goal is to bring the Bible to life into all our lives. I'm Brian French. Today, Dr. Kent Edwards, Vicki Hitzges, and Nathan Norman continue their discussion in the book of Proverbs. And if you have a Bible handy, turn to Proverbs 14:4 as we join their discussion.
Kent: Nathan, Vicki, have you known someone who was not necessarily rich or famous, but in your opinion was genuinely successful in life?
Vicki: I do, in a way. My mother— if somebody said Bonnie Robinson, apart from my father, Dr. Haddon William Robinson, nobody would know who she was. She was a musician, and she was very good at that, but she wasn't known for her music. And she left college early to marry my dad. And she was never wildly accomplished. You know, again, she was a good musician, but she wasn't wildly accomplished as far as what the world measures. She never made a lot of money. She never— and yet when people met her, they loved her. And because of my dad, she was able to meet all kinds of people, and they gravitated towards her. And they did because she was very, very loving and kind and interesting. Interested in them. She was very loved. She had a lot of friends. We adored her. She adored us. She was happy. She had a good, good life, but she wasn't rich and she wasn't famous. But I would say, and I think she'd say, she was genuinely successful.
Nathan: Yeah. I have some friends, Darren and Sharon, And I met Darren when I lived in Michigan, and he was helping to plant churches through the denomination. And at first I was just unimpressed with him. He just—
Brian: I—
Nathan: who is this guy? I don't get him. And as I got to know him, I realized that not only was he a really good man, but he was also brilliant. He would persevere. He was wise. And, uh, and I would, I would tell, uh, his co-workers, I would tell his bosses, he is the Columbo of church planting. Now, for our listeners who are of a certain age and don't know who Columbo is, he was this, uh, kind of bumbling detective on American television, and everyone underestimated him. And that's why he was always able to find the information and get things done, because everyone underestimated him. And, and Darren and Sharon, I, I I think en masse, um, our denomination really underestimated them.
Kent: They—
Nathan: their— the churches they helped plant were abundantly successful. They, uh, they supported a lot of successful churches and individuals, and they refused to support people they didn't think were, uh, had their hearts in the right place and that were going to persevere. They really counted the cost. And beyond that, I mean, their home while I lived in Michigan was always open. I mean, they were constantly inviting people over. It was the, the social nexus of, of everything. They were— their hospitality was utterly incredible. And so everyone who, who knew them loved them and cared for them and appreciated them and would go to bat for them. Um, so yeah, they weren't rich, they weren't famous, the denomination did not hold them in high regard, but my goodness, the things that they accomplished and the relationships that they built and, uh, and the work they did for the kingdom of God was and still is incredible.
Kent: Yeah, there's so many people that come to mind who were successful, but one I think I've mentioned before is a former pastor of mine when I was in high school, Mel Schereske. He was an example of a pastor. He was not necessarily the greatest preacher. He had his flaws, but two things he did well: he loved people. He cared about me when I was thinking about Bible school. He got me on the phone with the registrar there and argued on my behalf that the courses I had already taken at one Bible school should count in theirs, so I should be given advanced standing. I couldn't believe a pastor would do that. He said on one occasion, "I haven't met your parents. Is it okay if I visit them?" And in my church background, no pastor ever visited. And I was stunned. You want to come and see my parents in their home? Yes, I do. But also, he was not about himself. He was a churchman. He had come into my part of Toronto where I lived to replant a church, not an easy job. It grew very quickly, and he stunned us all by saying one Sunday, "I'm leaving." And we all said, "Why would you leave?" He said, "Because my gift is planting churches, and this is done. Someone else needs to take over. I'm going to go plant churches." And he went to the other end of the country, and guess what he did?
Vicki: Planted a church.
Kent: Yeah, planted a church, and it grew. And when he's done that, guess what he did?
Vicki: Left and planted a church.
Kent: He planted a church, and the guy finally retired.
Vicki: He was the Johnny Appleseed of churches.
Kent: Yeah, I know. And he finally retired. And guess what? He was bored. So guess what he did in his retirement?
Vicki: Planted churches.
Kent: He maximized his gift that God had given him for the glory of God. Nobody knows his name. He's not written up anywhere. But I still regard him as my hero, as a man who was unmitigated success. As Brian mentioned earlier, success is not determined by wealth, talent, strength, or beauty, as helpful as those things might be. But Solomon identifies a fundamental personal quality that is the bedrock of success, and he reveals it in Proverbs 14:4.
Vicki: I'll read that. Proverbs 14:4 says, "Where there are no oxen, the manger is empty." but from the strength of an ox come abundant harvests.
Nathan: Very applicable to all of us today. I mean, I know what this means immediately.
Vicki: Where there's no ox and the manger's empty. I got it that far. But from the strength of an ox come abundant harvests. Those two thoughts don't seem to go together.
Kent: So what is confusing about it? What leaves you in the dust?
Vicki: The reason it doesn't make sense is because there's more in a manger, an oxen. You picture all kinds of animals, but let's just say it's a manger for oxen. So no oxen, the manger's empty. But then it just changes course. It just goes a different direction. And it says, "But from the strength of an ox come abundant harvests." It's like saying, but the color of an ox is usually white.
Kent: Well, let me just suggest perhaps the challenge that you're facing, and certainly I was facing as I came to this, is that this comes from the agricultural world. And you and I don't know much about oxen.
Vicki: True. I know the color.
Kent: It reminds me actually of an account that your father, Haddon Robinson, mentioned on one occasion. He said of all the audiences he found challenging to preach to, it was agricultural communities, small towns in the country. Growing up in downtown New York City, he was a city guy and he didn't know anything about country.
Vicki: He did not.
Kent: But what he did wisely was show up a day or two early, sit down with people from the community, get to know them so he could understand their life a bit.
Vicki: Mm.
Kent: Wise man. And that's why I thought I should take a page out of Haddon Robinson's book and figure out about oxen. While it's true that oxen, if you look in the Bible, were occasionally eaten and sacrificed for religious reasons, that didn't happen often. The primary value of an oxen was as draft animals. They were used to pull plows, to break up hard-baked soil for seeding before the rains came. And during harvest, they would pull the carts to the threshing floor. And then the oxen were used for two purposes. First, the oxen would walk in circles over harvested stalks where their weight would begin to separate the grain kernels from the inedible chaff. Then they would be used to drag heavy notched wooden sleds to further loosen the grain from the husks. And only then could the farmer winnow the grain by throwing it up in the air with a wooden fork so the wind could blow away the chaff while the heavier grain fell to the floor to be collected. Oxen were important because of their strength. And it's important that, as we city dwellers often do, not to confuse cattle with oxen. Nathan, do you remember the metaphor that our Vietnamese student used to help us understand Paul's comments in 2 Corinthians 6?
Nathan: Yeah, I remember Sì was talking about not being unequally yoked, and he used the image of yoking a cow to an ox, right? Which, okay, no problem. Big animal could probably crush me to death. Sure. Either way. But the difference was that the oxen was so much more powerful. Powerful than the cow, that it would cause problems.
Kent: Yeah, it was actually just after a few steps that the cow would get tired. And remember what the cow did?
Nathan: Oh, it lay down.
Kent: It lay down.
Vicki: Yeah.
Kent: So the oxen couldn't do anything because he couldn't pull a cow that was sitting down as well as he could.
Nathan: Pretty strong, but it can't carry a ton.
Kent: Yeah. So in the same way, he was saying, Paul in 2 Corinthians 6 says, "Don't be yoked together with unbelievers because they'll slow you down, they'll stop you." And oxen, he knew, which you and I didn't know at the time, is incredibly powerful and hugely important for the agricultural industry. According to the Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, taming the ox had a profound effect on the pattern of farming in the ancient world. In fact, it was as radically changed— as radically as the horse improved transport some 2,000 years later. Wow. It was one of the greatest breakthroughs in agriculture of all time. In fact, The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible says, "The possession of an ox was almost the bare minimum of existence." A farmer couldn't survive without it. Which is why Moses in the law, in Exodus 23, said, "Six days do your work, but on the seventh day do no work, so that your," among other things, "your ox may rest and be refreshed." Look after your oxen, because without an ox, you can't farm. Oxen were essential to ancient farmers, as tractors are to farmers today. They're as important as ovens are for bakers, brushes are for painters, saws are for carpenters, books are for scholars. But one of the drawbacks I learned of oxen is their appetite. They not only work hard, they also eat a lot. So, With my apologies, I, with the help of AI, tried to figure out how much an oxen really ate. And the answers are surprising, aren't they?
Vicki: Well, I see what you have down here because you looked it up for us. 30 pounds of grass and hay a day. That's a lot. If you've ever picked up 30 pounds, like 15-pound weights, one in each hand. That's how much they eat just in grass and hay.
Kent: And they didn't stop there.
Vicki: I know they supplemental grain like cracked corn or barley and drink— they drink 30 gallons of water on a cool day. We struggle to drink 8 cups. They drink 30 gallons of water. And they take in trace salt and minerals in order not to cramp and maintain fluid balance. That's a lot of food.
Kent: Wow. Now, what I couldn't get AI to do was add that all up and say how much this cost in ancient currency way back then. But my hunch is, wouldn't you agree, Nathan, that there— it cost a lot to feed one of those animals.
Nathan: Yeah, probably more than $4 a gallon of oil, right? Yeah, very costly.
Kent: As my father-in-law said to me when I asked for his daughter's hand in marriage, "It's not the initial expense, it's the upkeep." But that's why Solomon talked about the temptation of an empty manger. The fact is that a farmer would like an empty manger instead of constantly filling it with enough food to fill the stomach of a 3,000-pound ox, wouldn't he? And who wants to pay for all that feed? Who wants to have to cart all that much water all the time? This is expensive.
Vicki: Well, that's pretty short-sighted. That's like wanting to travel around the world and not wanting to fill your car with gas. You want to move, you got to fill it up. You want your oxen to work, you got to fill it up.
Kent: Well, yes, that's Solomon's point. When someone is tempted to say, "I should cut back on my expenses, my oxen expenses. Look how much money I could save by not feeding them." Well, where there are no oxen, the manger is empty. If the manger is empty, you have no oxen. But from the what?
Vicki: Oh, now this is starting to make sense. But from the strength of an ox come abundant harvests.
Kent: If you don't make the investment, you will not have oxen. And if you don't have oxen, you don't have harvests. The good news is you save some money. The bad news is you don't have enough. Yeah, initially, but now you don't have enough food to get you through the rest of the year. Although a farmer can save himself work and expense by not keeping oxen, that's a false economy. Without input, there's no output. An abundant harvest requires abundant food. So success in farming is costly. If you're not willing to pay the price, you're not going to reap the rewards. And that's why Solomon wrote this proverb. He's not just telling farmers how to be successful. He's telling us how to live successful lives. What is most important to you will be costly. But to achieve the significant accomplishments you want to in life, that'll require sacrifice. In order to be what you want to be, to do what you want to do, you need to keep the manger full. That'll cost you, but the harvest you reap will be abundant. If I had to summarize what Solomon is saying, I'd say great results require significant investments. What does this proverb tell us if we were to apply it to educational success? What does this— how would this proverb relate?
Nathan: I can remember being in school and all of my teachers saying, you know, your job right now is school. And then when I was in seminary, I don't remember who said this, it was probably Mick Boersma, but that your ministry right now is your education, right? So there is a frustration when you're in seminary for 3, 4, 5 years to think I'm not getting on with my life. And I think that was really helpful for me to say, no, this is my ministry right now, because for me to have a successful ministry in the future, I need to receive this training and this care now, and I need to invest in it, and I need to work through it. And another joke I heard in seminary was education is the only thing where we want to get less than what we pay for, right? So you want the teacher to let you out early, you want less homework, you know, you know, You want a less project or an easier project. But that's the wrong feeling. It should be, I want more of this. I want to go deeper. I want to learn more. I want to be more effective at what I do. And that takes time, takes energy, and takes financial investment.
Kent: Sure. It's the professor's responsibility to show how this will help. And it's a student's responsibility to say, I must master this for the glory of God. For what's coming. How does this proverb, great results require significant investments, what does that say about marriage? How would that apply to marriage?
Nathan: Well, being a married man, you've got to invest in your marriage, right? No, you have to spend time. Otherwise, people will grow apart. I've seen as a pastor, right? You sit down with people and they've been married for dozens and dozens of years, and they're completely different people on opposite ends of the spectrum. How does that happen? Well, there was no time invested in their marriage. They were off doing their own things and their own interests, and, um, it just didn't work. Um, you know, you, you have to, uh, financially invest in, uh, in that marriage, whether it's, uh spending time together, going on vacations together if that's possible, building a house together, building a life together.
Brian: It's a lot.
Nathan: It takes a lot of time and energy.
Kent: It does.
Nathan: You're not going to have a successful marriage without being intentional about it.
Kent: Yep. Love is an act of the will, which means it requires a decision, a choice. I want to know my wife. I want to know her so well that I can respond to her, that I can anticipate her, that I can every year genuinely be able to say that we are growing closer together. And if we're not, what do I need to do to facilitate that? I want to invest so that there is a harvest. For pastors, for those of us who are in pastoral ministry, wow, this is challenging because successful pastoring requires a huge investment, doesn't it?
Nathan: Oh my goodness, right? You got to invest the time in your education. You have to invest your time in continual education. You have to be an expert, not only in the past, but in contemporary affairs. You have to be a politician at times. You have to be able to read the room. You have to be able to have some sort of counseling and people skills. You have to have some sort of academic time. Yeah, you know, and, you know, and it's costly. Uh, you don't— most pastors, despite the, the very few instances that we do see reported on, uh, in the media and on the internet, uh, most pastors do not make a lot of money, and if they took all of their skills and ability and applied them to another area of life, they could make significantly more. In fact, I know a guy who specializes in helping pastors find other work. Yeah, so it takes a lot, and you have to maintain that focus.
Kent: Ed, I think you'd agree that pastoring invades our schedule.
Vicki: Oh, constantly.
Nathan: My schedule? Wait, I'm allowed to have a schedule?
Kent: That's my point.
Vicki: And just, just when you finally get it cleared, somebody dies or gets married or needs counseling or— yeah. And you never know when that's going to happen.
Nathan: The worst is when somebody comes up, says, Pastor, you got a minute? It's never a minute, right? Yeah, it's never a minute. But, but I one time had a guy say, "Um, you got 2 minutes?" And I was like, "Oh my gosh." It was like 2 hours.
Kent: And every time I'd be tempted to shut someone down who comes with a legitimate need that's at an inconvenient time, I'm reminded of how often Jesus, we read in the Gospels, was walking from one ministry assignment to the other. And as he was going along the way, some lepers came to him. That kind of stuff happened all the time to Jesus. And along the way, he moved from his agenda to their agenda. My goodness. Great results require significant investments. But I think I could zoom out and see how does this apply to life. We've said before that, as Vicki, as your father said, every sermon needs a big idea. Right. I've also said that every life needs a big idea. Hmm. If the question of my life is how can I best glorify God? And I think that's what every Christian needs to answer, right? How has God uniquely made me and placed me in this world for his glory? How can I best glorify God in my life? The answer is different for everyone else. How God made you and placed you in this world, Vicki, is different than he placed me or Nathan or anyone else. We're not all responding to exactly the same song, but we're all responding to the music that he's playing for us. The question is not, what do I want to do with my life? But what does God want to do with my life? And isn't that what some of the great figures in the Bible faced? Do you remember Abraham?
Vicki: Sure.
Kent: He didn't stay in Ur of the Chaldees where he could have lived a nice comfortable life. Instead, he did what?
Nathan: He followed the call of God and traveled to the Promised Land, which when he got there did not look all that promising.
Kent: It did not look promising.
Nathan: What with all the people and everything.
Kent: And if people look back at the podcast we did in Genesis, we'll see how his life went up and down and struggle. But in the end, God said he would make his name great. And did that happen?
Vicki: It absolutely did.
Nathan: Well, we're talking about him now.
Vicki: Yes.
Kent: Was Moses interested in trying to liberate the people of Israel after his first incredibly poor attempt?
Nathan: No, he ran away. He ran away and he was like in his 40s when God called him, right? So he's middle-aged. It's just, "I'm trying to get through life now. Leave me alone." And even when God appeared to him from the burning bush and talked to him, He's trying to work his way out of it. "Well, you know, they want my life." "Don't worry, they're not there anymore." "Well, I can't talk." "Don't worry, I'll have Aaron for you." Right? Like, just, no. God said, "You're the guy I'm choosing to work through." And Moses did what God asked him to do.
Kent: That was God's purpose for him in his life. And he fulfilled it. I think of Paul. He was a guy with a totally different direction in life until God knocked him off his horse and—
Vicki: Totally different. He was out to kill Christians and then he became the grand spokesperson. Mm-hmm.
Kent: Became an outstanding apostle and evangelist for the Lord.
Brian: Yeah.
Kent: And in obedience, went from location to location preaching Christ until he got to Rome. Where history tells us he lost his life as an evangelist for Christ. The question is not, "What do I want to do with my life?" What does God want to do with my life? Once you and I have determined how God wants to use us for his glory, we're not to seek the cheapest, quickest, or easiest way forward. We want to choose the best way, even if it costs us more time and money. Because where there are no oxen, the manger is empty. But abundant harvests require sacrificial investments. That's true on the farm. It's true in life. What is the secret of success in life? A clear sense of God-given purpose and a relentless perseverance to pay any price to achieve God's purpose for our lives. Because from the strength of an ox comes abundant harvests. Maybe we could learn a lesson from Oswald Chambers and the title of his book: Let's give our utmost for His highest.
Brian: To us city slickers, It may seem odd to learn a valuable lesson from raising farm animals, but as we just heard, we can. And that is, if a farmer won't feed his oxen, his crop will eventually die. Similarly, if we don't give our maximum effort to our life's goal, our goal will inevitably fail. I trust that today's discussion of God's Word has been helpful and serves as an encouragement to not just be hearers of the word, but doers. Together, let's bring God's word to life, to our lives this week. The Crosstalk Podcast is a production of Crosstalk Global, equipping biblical communicators so every culture hears God's voice. To find out more about this educational nonprofit organization, please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org. Crosstalk just finished successful trainings in Bucharest, Moldova, Southern California, and Kansas this season. And we're getting ready for another training in Kenya this summer. Help us train the next generation of biblical communicators. All you have to do is click donate in the show notes and make a donation of any size. You can also support this show by rating it on whatever platform you're listening to us. And be sure to listen next Friday as we continue to learn from God's wisdom in the The Book of Proverbs. You won't want to miss it.
Kent: Nathan, Vicki, have you known someone who was not necessarily rich or famous, but in your opinion was genuinely successful in life?
Nathan: I most certainly have. And I'm going to be careful because I don't want to give away the identity of this person, uh, but he was in in one of the churches I attended and I was a pastor at, and he ended up being a child actor. Uh, he did a lot of little bit parts here and there, and then he was in this small independent movie, and that small independent movie was wildly successful and it turned into a whole franchise.
Kent: Wow.
Nathan: Uh, he became extremely successful and for a half minute was one of the most sought-after actors in Hollywood and, uh, and just made money, and women wanted to date him, men wanted to be him. Uh, he really had it all. He really did.
Vicki: Well, then he was, he was rich and famous, right?
Nathan: Yeah, yeah. I, I don't think he's currently doing much acting, but he came from a good family, and they wisely saved and invested the money, um, and so they're living quite comfortably.
Vicki: Well, can I say the question was, have you known someone who was not necessarily rich or famous but genuinely successful?
Nathan: Oh, dang it.
Kent: So no, not at all.
Nathan: Okay, hold on. Let me go back to this. Excise all of that.
Kent: Okay.
Nathan: Minute 6:13. Delete it all.
Kent: I don't know why it keeps jumping in and out of stuff. It's probably your program.
Nathan: It probably is.
Kent: Yes.
Nathan: Couldn't possibly be the Mac.
Kent: No, nope. If it wasn't for the bite out of the apple, Jesus would have used one.
Vicki: Oh man.