How can we be spiritual medics?
Text: Matthew
Hosts:
J. Kent Edwards
Vicki Hitzges
Nathan Norman
Narrator: Brian French
The CrossTalk Podcast is a production of CrossTalk Global, equipping biblical communicators, so every culture hears God’s voice. To find out more, or to support the work of this ministry please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org
Produced by Nathan James Norman/Untold Podcast Production
© 2025 CrossTalk Global
Brian: When it comes to effective combat warriors, we often think of those featured in the movies. The fearless fighter pilots who shoot down the enemy in a dogfight. Highly skilled snipers who take out combatants from hundreds of yards away. And brilliant generals whose genius plans confuse and overwhelm the enemy. But it might surprise you to learn that the most critical personnel on the battlefield are not the ones attacking the enemy. It's the medics. Medics are the first responders to injuries such as gunshot wounds and trauma. They help evacuate casualties to medical facilities for treatment and create long term care plans for patients. Medics play a critical role in sustaining a force by attending to the critical needs of fellow soldiers and enabling them to rejoin the fight. While the public often undermines the role of medics, they are vital to the battle. And so is the same regarding the role of spiritual medics. That's a role that Jesus personally assigned to each of us so that we could attend to the critical moral needs of our fellow Christians and help them rejoin the mission of growing Christ's church. Join Nathan Norman, Vicki Hitskiss and Kent Edwards as they listen, learn and apply Jesus instructions on how and why we must be first responder medics attending to the needs of our spiritually wounded comrades. Welcome to crosstalk, a Christian podcast whose goal is for us to encourage each other to not only increase our knowledge of the Bible, but to take the next step beyond information into transformation. Our goal is to bring the Bible to life, into all our lives. I'm Brian French. Today, Dr. Kent Edwards, Vicki Hitskiss and Nathan Norman continue their discussion through the Gospel of Matthew. If you have a Bible handy, turn to Matthew, chapter 18, verses 15 to 20 as we join their discussion.
Kent: I'm not sure that either of you is really would consider yourselves movie buffs, but can you remember some of the war movies that you have watched through the years?
Vicki: Boy, I'm out on this one. I can remember one and I saw it decades ago. And speaking of medics, it was mash.
Kent: Oh yeah.
Nathan: Oh yeah. Now I got the music in my head. Thanks.
Kent: And the TV show that ran forever.
Nathan: Yes, forever longer than the war itself. Yeah. You know, as you're listening to Brian's introduction, I was thinking of this movie called Behind Enemy Lines and it was not based in reality. And all I can remember is a fighter pilot gets shot behind enemy lines and he's trying to get out back to the safe zone. And it just seemed like a real life version of Elmer Fudd hunting down Bugs Bunny. I saw it with my dad and we Came out of there. We were like, yeah, it was trying to be serious, but. Yeah, no, not so much.
Kent: Didn't quite make it.
Nathan: No.
Kent: A couple that I remember, one was Saving Private Ryan. I thought that was well done. And Braveheart, when Sir William Wallace was fighting for Scottish independence from England. Mel Gibson, I thought, really did a good job in that film. But have you ever heard of any. Any war movie that featured a medic?
Vicki: No. MASH did. It was pretty much all about medics.
Nathan: Yeah, mash. Hacksaw Ridge comes to mind with Andrew Garfield. I can't think of any others.
Kent: Yeah, I'd forgotten about mash, but Nathan, the only one I could remember well was the one you suggested. Hacksaw Ridge. You may remember that that was actually based on a true story of a man named Desmond Doss, a Christian medic, actually, who refused to carry a weapon or firearm of any kind, even during battles. And during the battle of Okinawa, which was a huge battle between the American and Japanese forces in the Second World War, Desmond heard the cries of dying soldiers out on the field, and there was a lot of action going on. But that's huge risk to himself. Desmond went out and got a hold of those dying soldiers one at a time, carried them to the edge of a ridge and belayed them down to safety with rope. Went back and got another one and got another one and another one. I mean, his heroism was phenomenal.
Vicki: That's amazing. That's amazing. I have belayed. And that was the scaredest I can remember, being that he would take somebody else in a battle. That's amazing.
Kent: Well, it was. And he won the Medal of Honor for service, for going beyond the call of duty in that battle of Okinawa. Just an amazing, amazing display of what one medic could do for others. And we in Matthew 18 are called to follow in his footsteps, not necessarily to belay people off cliffs, but to help those. Please, God, don't ask me to do that. Me and heights. I may be tall, but I still don't enjoy heights. But we are asked by our Lord to help those in our church who were wounded by moral spiritual failure. Our last podcast emphasized the importance of being a positive moral example of not living a morally compromised life that would, as we read in Matthew 18:6, cause one of God's children to sin. In fact, Jesus said that. Well, do you remember what he said, how important it was?
Vicki: He said it would be better for us to have a large millstone hung around our necks and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Kent: So that's Pretty strong.
Vicki: It is. Be a good example. No kidding.
Kent: Yeah. We don't sin in a vacuum. If we live a morally compromised life, we will affect others, encourage others to sin, and the consequences are enormous and eternal. It's a grave sin to lead someone else into sin. But what should we do when a brother or sister in Christ, without any encouragement on our part, how should we respond when we see others fall into sin? What did Jesus command in Matthew 18:15?
Vicki: He says, if your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault. Just between the two of you.
Kent: Wow, guys, in your experience, is that the most common response Christians have to other people's sins?
Vicki: You know, it's not. I think in the church, we gossip or we look the other way and we just. We do nothing. Absolutely nothing. And it's. And it causes people who have been hurt to hurt more deeply and to be disenchanted with the church. And it causes people who are sinning to think, I got a free pass.
Nathan: Yeah, I 100% agree. I have nothing to add to that. That is exactly how people respond. It's either we're going to gossip or just do nothing.
Kent: What I find ironic is that sometimes, not in myself, of course, but in other people. I think it can lead to pride. We see someone's sin and we're aware of that, and we say, oh, they're terrible, awful people and feel better about ourselves because their sin was not our sin. And that just encourages, as you said, a descent into moral depravity. And we lose our witness as a church, as the people of God, as we no longer are holy as he is holy, Jesus says, no, if your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault to be like the medic Desmond Doss, despite the personal cost, because it could cost a relationship. When we go to someone and point out a sin that they may be trying to hide or don't want to admit, despite the cost, we're to reach out to morally wounded sinners and confront them about their sins. Why should we do that?
Vicki: Well, it says if they listen to you, you have won them over.
Kent: So the most loving, helpful thing we can do is to go to that person and just bring it to their attention. Something that they may not be aware of or something that they're trying to hide. In America, we have Good Samaritan laws that encourage people to spontaneously assist those in need, just as the Good Samaritan did in. In Jesus parable. And likewise, we are to morally spontaneously help those in need. That's what loving our neighbor Looks like going to someone who is struggling morally and helping them out by bringing their sin to their attention. It says that we're to do that. Jesus says, yes, we're to do that. But he says, just between the two of you, he seems to be stressing confidentiality here, doesn't he?
Nathan: Yeah, he sure is.
Vicki: He does. Because shame is a powerful emotion. And if we go lording it over them or we take other people with us, or we. That is just an attack. But if we go humbly and we go to the other person and say, let's talk about something and we do it calmly and we do it lovingly, then they can say, you know, you're right, and stop it.
Kent: And we could also find out that what we thought was sin was not sin. Right.
Nathan: Could be we might have misread the situation or the circumstances. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like Vicki said, there's a shame aspect to sin. And sin loves darkness. Right. So when you shine a light on it, it is embarrassing, it is hard, it is difficult. And the purpose of shining the light on it isn't to shame or embarrass, it's to restore.
Vicki: It's to restore.
Nathan: So if we're not trying to shame and embarrass, but if we're trying to save and rescue and preserve, it makes sense to do it as private as possible.
Kent: Yeah, yeah, it needs to be done, but it needs to be done in private. It kind of reminds me when I go for my annual physical, I have a great doctor and he's a wonderful physician that has been helpful in so many ways, but he wants to look at parts of my body I don't enjoy sharing with others. I value his help and would listen to his advice, of course, but I don't need to make it public. And I think there's something like that when we're dealing with friends that may be struggling in an area morally, we don't need to embarrass them by making it public, but we do need to tell them what they need to know so that they don't. So they can improve, they can get better, and they can walk in step with the Lord. We are to do so directly and with confidentiality. That's the first thing that. That Jesus tells us to do. But sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't. I mean, what's step two in Jesus plan in restoring someone?
Vicki: If it doesn't work? It says in verse 16, but if they will not listen, then take one or two others along so that every matter may be established by the Testimony of two or three witnesses.
Kent: Here, again, I think the emphasis is on privacy, right? Who knows about this person's alleged sin in step two, two, three?
Nathan: Well, three to four people. The person who allegedly sinned, and then the one or two witnesses that come along with the person.
Kent: And why the need for confidentiality?
Vicki: Because again, the goal is to restore and not to shame.
Kent: Right? And we're still at this point trying to figure out if sin actually happened, right? Because someone goes to their brother and points out their sin. The other person says, no, I didn't do that, or that's not sin, or.
Nathan: You misunderstood the situation. So now we're looking into my own car.
Kent: You know, we're looking for some objectivity that others can bring that we may not have. That's just good advice that Jesus gives. But it's interesting that what Jesus says here is actually an abbreviation of the Mosaic law in Deuteronomy 19:15, isn't it?
Vicki: Well, there he says, one witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Kent: So Jesus is just basically quoting the law here to the people, isn't he? We need witnesses. We need other people who are involved. I think keeping this judicial element in mind is important. In our own country, we have trials. And who gets picked to be a witness to serve on the jury in our case?
Vicki: I would try to find somebody that. Nathan, I'm going to pick on you. So I'm going to Nathan. I would try to find somebody that I knew Nathan respected and trusted and had Nathan's back, and somebody that I thought was godly. I wouldn't pick somebody that was my friend and that would side with me necessarily, and that Nathan didn't trust. Right.
Kent: What we're looking is for people who can come with objectivity, impartial jurors, not sympathizers. So if you're familiar with cowboy movies, you're not trying to gain a posse, people who are on your side and riding out to confront and attack somebody, that's not going to be helpful. I think it's wiser and more in keeping with what the law Moses intends. And Jesus is quoting here. By finding people who are deeply respected by the person we're going to who they know will be objective and fair and be able to speak truth and love to them. The purpose of the witnesses is to prevent vendettas. But what happens if the witnesses gather? Vicki, if you've got an issue with something that Nathan has done. What happens if the witnesses say, no, you're wrong. Nathan didn't do anything wrong. What happens to all this whole thing?
Vicki: If I think they have heard it and they understand everything, then I need to drop it, right?
Kent: So it has to. At that point, if I accused someone of a sin and the witnesses said no, we looked at the evidence, and I think you're wrong. I got to apologize, right? I'm sorry. I misread. Forgive me, that was my intent. And the matter is settled. It's done. It's dead. And how many people know about it?
Nathan: Three or four?
Kent: Only just three or four people. So their reputation is not ruined. The integrity of the church and the individual is maintained. No harm, no foul. But what happens if they are found to be sinning and still refuse to repent? They are stuck in their sin. What's the third step?
Vicki: Still refuse to listen. Tell it to the church.
Kent: Hmm? Those are God's commands. If they refuse to listen and repent of their sin that has been identified not just by one person, but by witnesses as well. Go public. What is the purpose of telling the entire church?
Nathan: Because light disinfects the dark. Light overcomes the darkness. There is power in the publicity of a person's sin if they are not repenting, to put pressure on them to say, what you're doing is wrong and you need to stop. The image Jesus is giving here with these steps is he is increasing intensity, and that's opportunity for the person to realize that they are sinning and to stop doing what they're doing.
Kent: So you're right. Are we talking about excommunication, about alienation at this point? Why tell it to the church? What is the church supposed to do with this?
Nathan: Well, at this point in the steps, the church is supposed to be trying to restore them, to restore their soul. Their soul is disordered. They are out of step with the will of God, and they're pleading with the person, what you're doing is wrong. This is a cloud of witnesses that is now saying in one unified voice, this is wrong. This is evil. You need to stop it. You need to repent. You need to follow Jesus, because you're not following him right now. We're trying to restore your soul so.
Kent: We don't broadcast it to the whole town, to the world. But we do have a congregational meeting, if you will, people who are part of the church, and we share the steps we've taken, the concerns that we have.
Vicki: I have a practical question. This is great when you're talking about this in the Bible, in a small community. But let's say that the two of you find out about a sin I'm committing. And one of you is in California. One of you is in New York, as you are, and I'm in Dallas. And one of you comes to me, and then both of you comes to me. And then you feel like we need to take this to the church. Who do you take it to?
Nathan: I would take it to wherever you're attending church right now. I would call up the pastor or the elders or whoever is that, and say, hey, we have this issue and here's the steps we've taken. Could we have a meeting?
Vicki: Well, that makes sense. So the church would be that person's church.
Nathan: Yeah.
Vicki: Okay. Okay.
Kent: They will want to verify that as well, I'm sure, just because they weren't involved in the organization.
Nathan: So you have to start back at step one. But hey, work them through again.
Kent: But it has to be dealt with. And that's a good observation, good application, Nathan. I think you're right. And if they refuse to listen to the church, step four, Jesus says, if that doesn't work, then what it says.
Vicki: Treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Kent: Woo.
Nathan: So this is obviously pagan or a tax collector. People who sacrifice to false demonic gods. And the guy who's a tax collector just to, you know, give everyone an image of what people thought of tax collectors.
Kent: Yeah. I mean, they were viewed as thieves and traitors. Right. Because they would use their authority given by Rome to not only take what Rome wanted as tax, but whatever they could steal for themselves as well. So they were the most despised. So when people read this and they say, well, if they won't repent, then treat them as a pagan or tax collector. Many will take that to be, let's kick them out of the church. This is time for the Amish shun, if you will.
Vicki: Yeah. But here's the truth. In real life, when you come across someone that you know is a sinner and not a believer, how do you treat them? Hopefully you don't treat them poorly, you treat them well and you invite them to church and you're kind to them. It's one thing to. If you're with a brother and that person's walking with the Lord, you treat them one way. It's another thing to be with somebody you know isn't walking with the Lord and isn't a believer, but you should treat that person very, very well.
Kent: Yeah, I agree with you. And I think what's interesting to note Is what gospel are we studying, by the way?
Nathan: The tax collector's gospel. Matthew.
Kent: So this is Matthew saying Matthew's hand.
Nathan: Gets shaky as he writes that point. He knows how much he was hated.
Kent: He's the former tax collector. And how did Jesus respond to Matthew the tax collector, who was obviously sinning in his profession? I mean, Jesus knew that. But how did Jesus treat Matthew?
Vicki: With great love. He invited him to be one of his 12.
Nathan: Come and follow me.
Kent: Come, follow me with great compassion, with warmth, and an invitation to repent and be restored in his relationship with God. Right, Right. So when it's given to the church, we've gone to the person individually, we've had the witnesses, we tell it to the church, and if they will not respond, have the church reach out with all of the relational opportunities that they have and the winsomeness that God can give them to keep inviting them to come back to the Lord because it's obvious that they have walked away from God, and that's the role of the church. How can we, as a body winsomely bring this person back to a right relationship with God and therefore fellowship with him, and therefore the people and everything becomes restored. Note the seriousness of this process as we go through this. This has real ramifications. And Jesus wants us to know that. In verses 18 and 19, he says.
Nathan: Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Again, truly, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.
Kent: So if two or more of you agree on anything, what is he talking about? On anything.
Nathan: What is the context here in evaluating a person's moral standing?
Kent: Ah, so these are the witnesses.
Nathan: Yes.
Kent: Who have gathered to try and discern whether this person is sinning or not. And when we have to gather together and make a decision whether this person is running from God or in proper fellowship with him, the consequences are significant. Right. Because he says, what? How serious is this decision that we make as witnesses, as people who are trying to restore a sinning brother or.
Vicki: Sister in Christ, decide if this person's going to heaven or not. Decide if this person is a Christian, Decide if this person belongs to the Lord.
Kent: That's huge authority, isn't it?
Vicki: It's huge. It is huge.
Kent: Is this person walking with God or away from God? Are they in fellowship with him or have they left him? This is massive because a person who chooses not to be holy cannot Live with a holy God. Light and darkness cannot exist together. They just simply can't. And I think you know, this echoes what the writer of the book of Hebrews said in Hebrews 10. Do you remember what he said in verses 26 and following?
Vicki: He said, if we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Kent: Not to interrupt, but isn't this exactly what the situation we're dealing with in Matthew 18?
Vicki: Yes, we deliberately keep on sinning after.
Kent: They know what they're doing is wrong, and they've had numerous people point out that their lifestyle is incompatible with being a follower of Christ. Yeah, and he goes on.
Vicki: Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone who deserves punishment, who has trampled the son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the spirit of grace? For we know him who said, it is mine to avenge, I will repay. And again the Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Kent: Every time I read that passage, it scares me. And I think that's the point of the passage, is to make sure that we understand the consequences of choosing to live in and with sin, to deliberately do what we know is wrong without resistance. None of us is perfect. All of us have areas where we struggle. But this is talking about people who have stopped struggling. This is talking about people who have given themselves to sin and say, I know it's wrong and I don't care. Imagine how those witnesses feel, those two or three people gathered together, trying to decide the spiritual destiny, if you will, of the person in question. How could we have the confidence, the courage to be part of such a process?
Vicki: Well, in the same passage in Matthew 18:20, it says, where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.
Kent: Oh, I thought this was for prayer meetings.
Vicki: It could be. I think it can be. But he's talking in this context. He is saying, if you meet to restore a brother, a sister, I'll be right there in the midst of you. That's where my heart is.
Kent: I will be with you. I will guide you. You are not making a decision on your own. You will experience my guidance in the midst of that critical situation, because I love these people too. And if there is Any way to bring them back to myself. I will show you the way. And if there's not, I'll reveal it to you. Nathan. Vicki, this is strong stuff. Have you ever seen this Jesus fourfold strategy work in real life? And if so, what happened?
Vicki: Yeah, I have. I met a gal who was a believer, and she had a great personality and she was a lot of fun, and she was having an affair with a guy, and I barely knew this girl. And I pulled her aside one day and I said, you belong to Jesus Christ and what you're doing is wrong. And you know that. And she said, vicki, thank you. She said, you're right. She said, my life fell apart when I started sleeping with whatever the guy's name is. And she said, you're right, and I need to stop that. And we were on the phone. I almost dropped the phone. I was like, you're kidding. Because I had done this once before with another gal who was a strong, mature Christian. Her husband had left, and she started having an affair with her divorce attorney. And she had said to me a year, a year or two before that, she said, I wish God would test me. And then she starts having this affair. And I said to her, you know that's wrong. She didn't care. And to this day, she's married to her divorce attorney.
Nathan: Wow.
Vicki: Doesn't always work, but, boy, when it does, it's amazing.
Nathan: Yeah. I've typically found people will either respond to step one or step two, Right. So you talk to them, and if they're a little belligerent or they're not willing, you go to the second step and you bring a person or two along, and then they're kind of like, okay, yeah, you know, and if they're going to respond positively, they will. If it's going to get elevated to the point where you're going, okay, we need to talk to the church about this. Typically, what happens, they leave, they'll leave the church, they'll leave the congregation. They just kind of flee and run away. So I've never actually seen positively the step three where you bring the person before the church or have the person, if they're there and still being belligerent. No, I'm a leader of this church, excommunicate. I've never personally seen it get to that point where you say, all right, this person, we're going to treat them as a nonbeliever, which means you're going to re. Evangelize them and going to continue to share Christ with them. Also, though that does mean within the church, they've lost any kind of leadership positions or opportunities to teach or serve because they're not living as a Christian. So they shouldn't represent the church or teach on Christ's behalf. I have not really seen it get to that point. What I have seen is Matthew 18 twisted and weaponized to justify. If there's a, you know, if there is a leader or pastor who has sexually abused someone in the church and then it comes out, and then the leadership trying to protect the pastor and the church from the victim says, oh, well, you didn't go through Matthew 18, so, you know, I guess it didn't happen. Right? And then they re victimized. So I'll see this text used by Satan. I will be so bold to say that, to weaponize it against people who have been sinned against, to protect people who are actually sinners sinning. But when you step back and look at this, you say, no, no, this is to prevent or to stop people from sinning, not to shame or victimize people who have been sinned against from finding restoration. I have seen that happen a lot, unfortunately. And it's almost like they use this as a shield to say, well, you didn't follow this step, so nothing we can do. It's like, well, wait a minute, there's still sin on the other end of this, so maybe we should.
Vicki: Or you see people be so unkind and say, well, I'm Matthew 18ing them. Yes, I hear that all the time. And I think you don't know what that means.
Nathan: No, because if you were truly in relationship with someone, the times I have had to just kind of like you were sharing, Vicki. When I've had to confront people, people in sin, and I can't think of a good example that I can use that wouldn't divulge identities. But when I've had to confront people in sin, it is horrible. I have no problem sleeping at night. If my head hits the pillow, I am out 30 seconds later. When I know I am going to have to confront someone in sin the next day, I can't sleep. It is excruciating. Why? Because I love them, because I value them, because I want to have a positive relationship. And because I am grieving over their sin, which apparently they don't care that much about. That is a horrible, horrible place to be. And so if you're going through these things, just as Kent and Vicki, you pointed out, for where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am with them also. Yeah, please, I need God to Be in the midst of when you confront sin with people that you deeply love and care about. But yeah, if you're, as Vicki was saying, if you're just callously saying, I'm going to Matthew 18 them while you're putting on the brass knuckles, yeah, but.
Vicki: Somebody needs to do that to you, babe. Yeah.
Kent: Interestingly, there's no brass knuckles in this passage. This is not done to hurt. This is not done to attack. It is always to restore. And I remember a time when we had to, as leaders in the church, deal with a person who was willfully sinning. There was a woman who was sleeping with someone who was not her husband then and had moved in with him. And we found out and we had to go. Her small group leader went to her individually and talked to her about this, and she didn't repent. And so we had to go to two or three witnesses. And we went and talked with her and waited for God's Holy Spirit to do a work in her heart and for her to repent. And by the way, these steps don't have to be done all in one afternoon, right?
Nathan: Thank goodness.
Kent: Like we can be patient enough to say that perhaps God will do a work. And it may take a little time for God's spirit to bring the person to repentance. But eventually we had to make a decision where two or three are gathered, we're witnesses, and what are we going to do with this person? How do we assess them? I remember gathering with a small group and we were in a doughnut shop and just praying our hearts out. God give us wisdom to know, do we go forward? Do we not? How do we treat this person?
Nathan: The donut shop was like, could you please order or get out? This is weird.
Kent: And we went and sat down with this woman and laid out the situation. And she said to me, I know. She said to all of us, I know that what I'm doing is wrong and I don't care. I am not going to stop doing this. I refuse. And we just said, I think God is with us. I think this gave us the clarity that we needed to take the next step. And then we met with the church and we told them what we had seen and what the situation was. And we did it with a broken heart and said, please use all of your resources. Is there any way we can bring this woman to a saving knowledge of Christ? Because no Christian will willfully live in sin without resisting it. If they are comfortable with their sin, they can't be comfortable with God not to reject her. Not to shun this woman, but to try everything we can, Nathan, as you mentioned, to bring them back into fellowship with the Lord. That means repentance, but I think God always responds to people who are genuinely repenting of their sins. In this passage, there are four steps that we are to implement with a sinning brother or sister. They're not easy to implement and certainly not popular, but they are important. Desmond Doss dared to reach out and rescue his physically wounded comrades, regardless of the cost to himself because he loved them, he cared about them. May we show the same courage that he did by following Jesus. Four Step Process to try and rescue our brothers and sisters in Christ whose sin has jeopardized their eternity. I think we can do that because God has given us the authority and confidence that he'll be with us. Let's reach out to those who have walked away from God. The church needs you. The church needs more medics.
Brian: If you know a believer who is living a life locked in sin, be a medic. Restore them using the process we just heard about in Matthew 18. STEP 1 Go to the person privately and show them their fault. Step 2 if they don't listen, take one or two witnesses. Step 3 if they still won't listen, tell the church. Step 4 if they still won't listen, the church should treat them lovingly, regarding them as a nonbeliever. In this passage, we read that we as believers have tremendous authority to bind or loose a person's eternal salvation. We have the confidence to follow these steps because when we go, Jesus assures us that when two or three are gathered in his name, he will be with us. So go be a loving spiritual medic. I trust that today's discussion of God's Word has been helpful and served as an encouragement to not just be hearers of the Word, but doers together. Let's bring God's Word to life to our lives. This would the crosstalk Podcast is a production of crosstalk Global equipping biblical communicators so every culture hears God's voice. To find out more about this educational nonprofit organization, please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org. we just launched a new cohort in Salina, Kansas, and later this month we're training biblical communicators in Panama and India. Help us empower the next generation of biblical communicators. All you have to do is click donate in the show notes and make a donation of any size. You can also support this show by rating it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you Find it. Be sure to listen next Friday as we continue our discussion of the Gospel of Matthew. You won't want to miss it.
Nathan: This will be fun. So.
Vicki: No, it won't. Because what if. What if we get to. It's. It's the end of it. And I know. I told my dad, he said, vicki, what do you think the big idea of this passage is? And we got to the end of it, and. And none of the students got it. And I said, here's what I think it's saying, daddy, you're not going to like it. And he went, vicki, that is what it's saying.
Nathan: I don't know. That happens regularly with me and my wife where we will y'all preach. And at the end, she's like, I don't think that was the big idea. Well, what do you think the big idea was? I think it was this. And I've grown to maturity. If I think she's onto something, I'll. I'll, you know, acquiesce and then just die. But usually I'll argue with her and show her why she's wrong and I'm right.
Vicki: I'm going to tell you what I think this is saying in the end, because I think it's really serious. And if we don't agree, I don't want to be on the program. And if we do, then I'm all about this. I think if you get. If. If. If somebody is hardened in their sin and you go through this whole process and they won't give up their sin, then they're not saved. It'll be loosed in heaven. I think you can lose your salvation. It may mean they never were saved, I don't know. But I think they can lose their salvation.
Kent: So why is that? Why am I not saying that?
Vicki: I don't know that you're not. I'm just telling you. That's what I think this is saying.
Kent: Well, if you get to.
Vicki: I didn't look at your script, Kent. I'm just saying if we don't agree on that, then maybe you should do this with Nathan. That's what you're saying. I'm all about that. I think this is really serious.
Nathan: All right, everyone. Vicki is all about losing your salvation.
Vicki: No, if that's what you think, then we're good.
Kent: I think we're good.
Nathan: I think he's good with losing your salvation, and I am not.
Vicki: Quit that. Quit that. Quit that. You know, there are people that think once saved, always saved. And I think you need to be careful about that.
Nathan: That's a terrible phrase. I agree. I do believe in the security of the believer.
Vicki: That's what my dad says.
Nathan: But. Right. Nuance and I had a whole conversation. There was a young man from college. Oh, my gosh, he was a philosophy major. He had me on my toes yesterday. I thought we were going to meet for an hour. We ended up talking for like three and a half hours about, oh, my goodness, biblical philosophy. He was sharp. I mean, really sharp. And, yeah, we went into. I kept changing categories to see if he could follow me, and he just hop, skipped and jumped right along. I was very impressed, other than some of the language stuff, but he's not a theologian, he's a philosophy major. So I was pretty impressed with his knowledge. But, yeah, we talked extensively about the tension of security versus, you know, Hebrews and this passage. So this will be fun. Let's see if Vicki's still on the show at the end of it.
Vicki: No, no, no, no, no. I didn't see where he went. I just.
Kent: 10 on page three.
Vicki: Just so you know, none of the other students in the class went where I went. And so I said. I was teasing. I said, you're not going to like where I came on this. And he went, that's exactly where it's going.
Nathan: Yeah. Well, because systematic theology isn't bad. It's not evil. It's not wrong. My difficulty with systematic theology is it often either tries to smooth over nuance or paradoxes. And it also is not comfortable with doing the homework and then saying, there is some level of mystery here. Right. I've become much more comfortable with doing my homework and saying, you know what? I don't fully understand the Trinity. There is some divine mystery here. I don't fully understand sovereignty and free will in regards to salvation. There is some amount of divine mystery here, and we can make all sorts of conjectures. The problem is when we make those conjectures. Well, this is how it is. No, you have to be honest. Say this is conjecture. That's one of these areas where it's our biblical theology. So if you're just looking at what the text says, it's like, wow, that's really clear. But then when you look at other passages and other books, you're like, well, it contradicts that and I don't know. And that's maybe a little more clear. Right. So we're not comfortable with nuances. We're not comfortable with divine mystery. And I think that's what leads to some of these arguments and debates.
Kent: I think all truth is held intention. Every single doctrine is held intention. God is a God of love and grace, and God is a God of wrath and punishment. Which is true. Yes, Everything is. And it makes sense to me, because all people have truth, intention. I mean, we all do. We have attributes. But then we have the opposite attribute at the same time. And maybe God is a person, which doesn't mean he's unknowable or schizophrenic. I think we understand each other, but there's parts of us, of all of us, that the others would. We would each say, well, that sounds kind of odd. How does that fit in? I think God's a person and we're people, and people are knowable, but they all. Everyone holds their attributes in tension.
Nathan: So.