Why are religious people a problem?
Text: Romans 1:14-17; 2:1
Hosts:
J. Kent Edwards
Vicki Hitzges
Nathan Norman
Narrator: Brian French
The CrossTalk Podcast is a production of CrossTalk Global, equipping biblical communicators, so every culture hears God’s voice. To find out more, or to support the work of this ministry please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org
Produced by Nathan James Norman/Untold Podcast Production
© 2026 CrossTalk Global
Contributors
Vicki Hitzges, Nathan Norman, Kent Edwards, Brian French
Keywords
Crosstalk, bible, modern bible, bible conversation, bible reading, discussion, crosstalk global, crosstalk podcast, bible application, Romans, the letter to the Romans, Paul, Apostle Paul, St. Paul, fear of god
Brian: If you like sports, you understand the importance of winning. Those who qualify for the Olympics dream of standing on the podium with their national anthem playing and a medal draped around their necks. Those who dream of playing football in the World Cup dream not only of the celebration after the final goal is scored, but also of a lifetime of adulation, knowing that people will be perpetually congratulating them for bringing the trophy to their home country. But the dream of being better than others is not limited to athletics. In the business world, success is often measured by how much money you earn and how much market share you hold. Ticket sales determine success for movie stars, rock bands, and concert halls. In America, authors compete for the number of days they are listed number one on the New York Times bestseller list. Among religious folk, success is often measured by the frequency of attendance at religious events, the pilgrimages to holy sites, the amount of money donated, the sacrificial service we volunteer for, and the piety people display. And that's the problem with the world's religions, even Christianity. Consciously or unconsciously, they encourage followers to view their faith as a competition with others, to be seen as superior, and to be awarded the religious gold medal. How can we avoid falling into the performance trap and keeping our faith from being diminished until it becomes little more than performance-based, Audience-oriented, choreographed piety. Listen in as Nathan Norman, Kent Edwards, and Vicki Hitzges hear the Apostle Paul confront the Jewish community in Rome who were convinced their piety would earn them the holiness award. Welcome to Crosstalk, a Christian podcast whose goal is for us to encourage each other to not only increase our knowledge of the Bible but to take the next step beyond information into transformation. Our goal is to bring the Bible to life into all our lives. I'm Brian French. Today, Dr. Kent Edwards, Vicky Hitzges, and Nathan Norman continue their discussion in the book of Romans. If you have a Bible handy, turn to Romans chapter 1, verses 14 through 17, and chapter 2, verse 1, as we join their discussion.
Kent: I find that texts and emails are very effective for passing on information. But for those who take the time to communicate the old-fashioned way by writing letters, those are far more personal. We get more insight into people's characters in a letter than you will in a text. Have you seen that?
Vicki: Oh yes. In fact, when you say that, I think, yes, that's true. It's kind of like the difference in going to a doctor and texting your doctor. If you go, you go, you complain, or you say, oh, I'm so grateful, or, you know, blah, blah, blah. But if you text, it's just Fever's gone. Head's good. Feel great. It's bullet points.
Nathan: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. If you get— especially today, if you get a letter, if it's physical, it's in the mail. Wow. That means so much more than a text message.
Vicki: It's a gift, isn't it?
Nathan: Absolutely. Unbelievable.
Kent: I guess that's why I pay special attention to Paul's letter to the Romans, because He wrote letters a number of times, but he wrote— spent a long time on this letter. He had an affinity for these people, a sense of urgency in communicating truth to them on a significant level. He began his letter to the Romans by revealing his personal motivation and passion for the gospel. Remember, we saw that last week. When he said in Romans 1:14,
Vicki: he said, "I am obligated both to Greeks and non-Greeks, both to the wise and the foolish. That is why I am so eager to preach the gospel also to you who are in Rome."
Kent: I understand the reasons for reaching the pagan Gentiles. In chapter 1, we saw that certainly they were sinful. Do you remember how Paul described them?
Nathan: Oh yeah, just idolatry and sexual perversion, depraved minds that led to every kind of wickedness. Every kind of wickedness. Even inventing new ways of doing evil. It's almost like he was talking about the 21st century. Get your robots to do your evil for you.
Vicki: There you go.
Kent: If it's a competition, I'm not sure who would win. Oh goodness. Both are evil. Yet, he says in verse 32, although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do those very things, but also approve of those who practice them. That's evil. No wonder Paul said that the wrath of God was being revealed against all their godlessness. So I understand why Paul wanted to present the gospel to them. Man, they needed to hear it. But I guess my question is, why is Paul so passionate about also preaching the gospel to the Jews who were in Rome? Remember what he said in verse 16.
Vicki: He said, and I like this verse a lot, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel because it is the the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
Kent: Well, it sounds strange to me. Why first to the Jews? It seems counterintuitive. After all, the pagans of Rome knew nothing about the God of the Bible, whereas the Jewish population were the Bible experts of their day, weren't they?
Nathan: No, absolutely. They had the Torah, the first 5 books of the Bible. They knew about the fall of Adam and Eve and the flood, Abraham's faith, the covenant God made with him. They were sealed by circumcision to that very day. Ouch. As well as the Mosaic Law, which outlined in great detail how Israel should live day to day.
Kent: Yeah. So they had a lot going for them. But in Romans chapter 2, Paul speaks to the Roman Jews, who it seems were not very different from the Roman pagans he described in chapter 1. In fact, their self-righteousness seems to have blinded them from their own sins that also required repentance. What is Paul saying to this famously pious Jewish population in Rome? Well, he's points out to begin with that their religion is blinding them to their own sinfulness. He says that in chapter 2, starting in verse 1.
Vicki: He says, you have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment?
Kent: Well, that's pretty harsh, isn't it? The pagans are evil, and so are you. Why do you pass judgment on them and yet do the same things? You also are liable to God's judgment.
Vicki: I think it was a gutsy thing to say. Because nobody wants to be criticized. But it doesn't seem harsh to me. It seems— if you're— it's like every once in a while you'll hear a pastor who condemns homosexuals or condemns sex outside of marriage, and then you find out that guy's doing it, you know.
Nathan: Or, I mean, I— can you imagine, right, you go to a church today and, uh, and you have a preacher come and say, uh, you You are just as sinful as, you know, the, uh, the, the terrorists and their belief system. Wait, what? You— which we know theologically they're saying, yeah, you need Jesus just as much as they do, right? So it softens the blow there. But man, you are just as sinful. You are in as much rebellion against God as those terrorists and their religious idolatry.
Vicki: That's a good point.
Nathan: Because it's like, oh, whoa, no way. I'm not blowing people up. I'm not, I'm not sleeping with the secretary. Come on.
Vicki: Exactly. Exactly.
Nathan: I'm not abusing children. Whatever. You know, I'm like, I'm not doing any of that, right? So I'm not—
Vicki: you need God as much as Jeffrey Epstein.
Nathan: That is so offensive. I like—
Vicki: it is offensive.
Nathan: I theologically agree with that statement.
Vicki: I do too.
Nathan: And how dare you?
Vicki: That's true. All of that.
Kent: So why do you think the Jews thought they were less sinful than the pagans? Why do you think that they of all people could escape God's wrath against sin?
Vicki: Because they were righteous. They were self-righteous. They obeyed all the rules, as you know, as best they possibly could. They obeyed all the rules, and they took great pride in that.
Kent: But God gave them the law, right?
Vicki: Yeah.
Kent: So they knew what the rules were.
Vicki: And they followed them.
Kent: Yeah, they were passionate about, at least externally, obeying the laws, no question. But they not only had the law, there was something else that made them feel really superior to every other nation in the world.
Nathan: Circumcision.
Kent: Why was that so important? I'd like to know. I'd rather avoid that. Why were they proud of it?
Nathan: That was an external symbol. That, that was a physical marker that said, God made a covenant with us and we have kept that covenant. It's an eternal promise. We are God's chosen people. We're his forever family.
Kent: Yeah.
Nathan: And he gave us the law. Right?
Kent: Right. We have the law. Nobody else has the law.
Nathan: We are his people.
Kent: And we do our best, not perfectly, but we do our best to keep the law. They don't. And we've been chosen to be part of God's covenant people with all the promises that were made to Abram. So we're made in the shade. They thought they were immune from God's judgment, and they didn't think they were anywhere close to Epstein. We as evangelical Christians, can we fall into the same trap? Think that we are fine because we have the law and because we have been introduced to a relationship with God?
Nathan: 100%. We can slip into the idea that the world comes to us for salvation, right? Instead of Jesus, we can think, oh, well, we know about Jesus, we know about salvation. We've read through the Bible. We have all of this. We have the church. So we're good. We're fine. Our righteousness is phenomenal. Not like those awful people outside of the church.
Vicki: Yeah.
Nathan: You know, look at how terrible are they. I'm so glad that I'm not like one of those awful, terrible people with a bad voting record out there.
Kent: Yeah, I think for Paul, circumcision for them is kind of analogous to like a wedding ring would be for us. It was a physical symbol of faithfulness to God, just as a wedding band is a physical symbol of sexual and emotional faithfulness to our spouse. But a wedding band is not a get-out-of-jail-free card for adultery. Just because you've got the wedding ring doesn't mean you're living up to it. The law is like a mode— The law is like a roadmap for life, telling us which turns to take in our cars to reach our destination. But the map does not take away our ability to turn the steering wheel the wrong way and end up far from home. The Jews relied on their circumcision as an infant as a guarantee of their salvation, whereas all too often we rely on the day we raised our hand to accept Christ as the reason for our eternal security. The Jews relied on knowing God's laws to live. Well, today, all too often, we have confidence because we've memorized verses in Awana or listened to our pastors preach the Bible verse by verse. But knowing the Bible is not the same as obeying it. So, why is Paul saying to the Jewish— what is Paul saying to the Jewish population in Rome? Your religion is actually binding you to your own sinfulness. Your religion is not helping you. In fact, more than that, your religion is leading you towards God's judgment because he's going to judge you just the same as he will judge the pagan. He says that in chapter 2, right?
Nathan: He says, "At whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. You are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil, for 'First for the Jew, then for the Gentile, for God does not show favoritism.'
Kent: That's a scary verse, isn't it? Hmm. God's trouble and distress will come for every human being who does evil. First for the Jew, then for the Gentile. We're not necessarily exempt from God's judgment, right?
Vicki: Why does it say there, 'First for the Jew, then for the Gentile'? It's just everybody all at once, right?
Kent: Well, that's a good question. Why first for the Jew?
Nathan: Well, because salvation comes first for the Jew, then for the Gentile, because Jesus came to his own people. The second person of the Trinity incarnated as a Jewish person, and he took on Jewish flesh. He preached amongst the Jews, and they first have the opportunity to accept the gospel, first for the Jew, then for the Gentile, as the gospel spreads. But as judgment comes, and if you have rejected the gospel of Jesus, the judgment will come first for the people who rejected it and for everybody else who rejected it.
Vicki: Huh. Okay.
Kent: They are more culpable because they had more information. They knew more about the character of God than others did. They were given more privilege than others. And yet, if they don't follow that, if they don't practice that, their religion was leading to judgment, first for the Jews and then for the Gentiles. And again, we're more like the Jews than we are the Gentiles in Paul's writing. We're the ones who have been given so much more information.
Vicki: We who've accepted Christ.
Kent: Of course.
Vicki: Yeah, okay.
Kent: And we've sat under, listened to the Bible and memorized the the passages, and that increases our accountability. And Paul is saying to these Jews that they are, because of their actions, just as sinful as the pagans described in chapter 1. In verse 12, he said—
Vicki: He says, all who sin apart from the law will also— let me think about that. All who sin apart from the law, so people who don't know the law, Right. All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
Kent: So it's not just what you know, it's how you live. And Paul is wanting to take the gospel to the Jews in Rome because he knows that these religious people in Rome will face the same eternal fate as the pagans. They are in equal need of responding to the gospel. That's kind of scary, isn't it?
Vicki: It can be.
Nathan: Sure is. I mean, I don't know. If I look the part, I feel like I am the part, right?
Kent: Right. And how many times have I been at a funeral and heard people say they were regular attenders at church and they did this and they did that? And it's not wrong, and it's good that they did those things, but that's not necessarily living in obedience and fellowship with God.
Nathan: Yeah, well, to Vicki's point, right, how many pastors do we continue to see being arrested for heinous crimes against other people and children, uh, on and on and on and on and on. And these are people that preach the message, and they reached through, uh, the text, and they spoke the words, and they, uh, they volunteered their time and all of this stuff. And it turns out, oh, that didn't affect them at all. They're just horrible on the inside. They have this secret life that, that got found out.
Kent: So why does the Apostle Paul desperately want to go to Rome and preach the gospel not only to the Gentiles, but also to the Jews who had so much knowledge of God? Because their religion was leading them to sinfulness. Because their religion was leading them to God's judgment. And because their religion was not leading them to the internal righteousness that God requires. I think it's really critical that we understand what Paul is saying in chapter 2, verse 28 and following.
Vicki: It says, a person is not a Jew who is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly, And circumcision is circumcision of the heart by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person's praise is not from other people, but from God.
Kent: Well, that's really insightful, isn't it?
Vicki: Yes, and what a beautiful thought to be praised by God.
Kent: So it's not externals, it's internals that matter,
Vicki: which will affect our externals.
Kent: Of course. I look at that and I say, man, I wish Paul would have spent a little bit more time explaining what internal righteousness looks like. It's obviously critical. I wish he'd talked more. But then it's a good thing that Jesus filled in some of the blanks. You remember some time ago in a podcast we went through Matthew, the Sermon on the Mount. Notice how Jesus began the introduction to perhaps the best sermon ever preached. Blessed are the poor in spirit. Blessed are those who mourn because of their sins. Blessed are the meek. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness. This is not just externals. This is the teaching of the law and the promise of the covenant. Applied to the deepest parts of their life. These are people who are transformed inside, not just on the outside. And you remember how he applied the law? After Jesus points out that they needed to have— his followers needed to have internal righteousness, not just external righteousness as the Pharisees did, he applied the law to their life. Nathan, do you remember how he applied murder to their lives?
Nathan: Right. He says it starts in the heart. Don't hate your brother, call him a fool. All right. So, so it's not enough to say, all right, I'm not going to do the physical act of murdering them. No, no. Cut it off before that even gets to that point. You need to love your anger. You need to love your brother. Right.
Kent: Deal with your anger. Yeah.
Nathan: And then find reconciliation, right?
Kent: And then in order to make sure we love him,
Nathan: it's
Kent: unbelievable. Reconcile.
Nathan: It is unbelievable. He— I still struggle with this, right? The prescription of Jesus isn't when someone wrongs you and if they apologize, forgive them. When someone wrongs you, you go to them and confront them with that wrong. And if they apologize, you give them forgiveness. You know what you did was wrong. If you ever want forgiveness, just ask. That is hard. Oh my goodness. You are, you are confronting the problem, but forcing the situation so that you can have reconciliation.
Kent: So Jesus is demonstrating internal righteousness. This is what applying the law really looks like. He does the same thing with adultery. He says, yeah, adultery, you're innocent of adultery, not just if you don't have sex with someone who's not your spouse, But you have to get rid of lust. Even if you don't commit the physical act, if you have lust, that is equal to the sin of adultery. You are guilty of that. And Vicki, you remember what we said about how to get rid of lust?
Vicki: Oh, I do remember. And man, it is— he says, pluck out your eye, whack off your hand. Just don't even at all go there. Better that you're a limping, deformed than that you lust. Which, you know, I would say as a wife, I'd rather— well, I don't know that I was going to say I'd rather my husband lusts, but I don't know that I think that. But I can tell you what, God takes it seriously.
Kent: He does. Yep. So you're telling me that if my iPad is causing me to lust, I should throw it out?
Vicki: Yeah, absolutely.
Nathan: Those are expensive. Or trade it in.
Vicki: Sell it on Facebook Marketplace.
Kent: But the point is, it's not just externally. I can't say that I've got an A+ on the idea of I'm free from adultery unless I've dealt with it inwardly as well as externally. And the same thing with acts of piety. Jesus goes on in the Sermon on the Mount to say that when you pray, don't do it to impress others. When you give, don't give it so others see that you're giving. When you fast, don't put on a show. No, it's not for what people see. It is your heart relationship with the Lord. It is internal righteousness, not external righteousness. According to the Pew Research Center, the majority of the world's population are religious. 29% of the world's population are Christian, 26% Islamic, 15% Hindu, 6% Buddhist. A whopping 24%, or 1.9 billion people, are called "nones," a term that refers to atheists, Agnostics, or those who just believe in nothing in particular.
Vicki: Nones, N-O-N-E-S, yes.
Kent: As Christians, our hearts go out to those nones who have no faith to fall back on. But according to the Apostle Paul, all who regularly attend a place of worship are also in spiritual peril. A peril not limited just to the followers of Islam, Hinduism, or Buddhism, but to many of those who attend Christian churches as well. Our faith is not to be a performance art. It is a total transformation of our souls. The problem with religion is that every religion encourages us just to scratch the surface of our relationship with God. But God wants to penetrate to the depth of our souls. And we need to follow him in that direction, because as Paul says, no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law.
Brian: Why should we be concerned about religious people, ourselves included, who think that spiritually they are a-okay? Our religion should pass the test on us internally, because When we act piously for others to see, then our religious acts blind us to our sin. We start to feel righteous when we may just be showing off. We should be concerned about religious actions because God judges impartially. He doesn't care if we are a Jew, a Gentile, a Hindu, or a Baptist. There's no difference if we are merely externally practicing our faith. Because everyone will be judged according to what's in our hearts. Satan is, quote, religious. Satan can quote the Bible, for example, but that won't get him into heaven. We aren't saved because we do something externally. Our faith must change the core of who we are. If we only have external obedience to the Bible but we do not have an internal relationship with God, we will face God's judgment. God cares who we are inside. The Crosstalk podcast is a production of Crosstalk Global, equipping biblical communicators so every culture hears God's voice. To find out more about this educational nonprofit organization, please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org. Crosstalk is getting ready to train biblical communicators in Southern California California, Cuba, Bucharest, Moldova, and Nepal. Help us train the next generation of biblical communicators. All you have to do is click Donate in the show notes and make a donation of any size. You can also support this show by rating it on whatever platform you're listening to us. Be sure to join us next week as we continue our series through the book of Romans. You won't want to miss it.
Kent: A whopping 24% or 1.9 people are called nuns.
Vicki: Or 1.9 billion.
Kent: Yeah, what did I say? 1.9—
Nathan: You just said 1.9 something.
Vicki: Like less than 2 people. One guy and a guy with his hand whacked off.
Nathan: Circumcision.