What is the secret of leadership?
Text: Proverbs 14:34-35
Hosts:
J. Kent Edwards
Vicki Hitzges
Nathan Norman
Narrator: Brian French
The CrossTalk Podcast is a production of CrossTalk Global, equipping biblical communicators, so every culture hears God’s voice. To find out more, or to support the work of this ministry please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org
Produced by Nathan James Norman/Untold Podcast Production
© 2026 CrossTalk Global
Brian: Robert McGregor Burns wrote in his landmark book Leadership that, quote, "One of the most universal cravings of our time is a hunger for compelling and creative, Leadership, end quote. Publishers would seem to agree. With over 50,000 leadership books in print, with thousands more published annually, there seems to be a global consensus that leadership is critical to an organization's success. Where this consensus ends, however, is what makes great leaders great. Opinions vary. Steve Jobs, the Apple co-founder, said, innovation distinguishes a leader. Martin Luther King Jr. said, "A great leader is a molder of consensus." Mahatma Gandhi said, "Leadership today means getting along with people." Tony Blair said, "The art of leadership is saying no, not saying yes." And Lao Tzu said, "A leader is best when people barely know he exists." Who is right? Should leaders innovate, build consensus, calm troubled waters, say no, or hide in the shadows? Is it all of these or none of these? Leading others is not easy, and it is even harder to define. That is why I find the book of Proverbs so helpful. It was written by King Solomon, who until late in life was not only one of the most successful leaders of all time, but also wrote down the secret of his leadership success in the book of Proverbs so we could follow in his leadership footsteps. Listen in as Kent Edwards, Vicki Hitzkes, and Nathan Norman uncover some of King Solomon's leadership secrets for success in Proverbs chapter 14, verses 34 and 35. Welcome to Crosstalk, a Christian podcast whose goal is for us to encourage each other to not only increase our knowledge of the Bible but to take the next step beyond information into transformation. Our goal is to bring the Bible to life—into all our lives. I'm Brian French. Today, Dr. Kent Edwards, Vicky Hitzkes, and Nathan Norman continue their discussion through the book of Proverbs. If you have a Bible handy, turn to Proverbs 13:34-35 as we join their discussion.
Kent: Vicky, Nathan, who have been some of the effective leaders that you've appreciated through the years? Why do you think that they were successful?
Vicki: You know, I was tipped off that you were going to ask us that, so I've been giving this some thought. And I was thinking about the bosses that I've had in all different kinds of walks in life. And I thought, I don't think I've ever had a good boss. At one point, I was working for an image company that did color analysis and tell you how to dress and all that stuff. There was somebody between the head person and me, and she was great. And the reason she was great is because she made me feel like she was looking out for my best interests. There was a point where I got a raise and I made more money than she did. And I liked her. I didn't want to mess up that relationship. And I remember her saying to me, "Vicki, you worked hard for that. You deserve it. It doesn't hurt me a bit to make less money than you." Wow. I would have chewed off my arm for her. Yeah.
Kent: Yeah.
Nathan: Yeah. Similar to Vicki, we were talking about this before we hit record, and that was my exact comment. I don't think I've ever had a good boss. But then I went all the way back and one of my first kind of unofficial jobs, I worked for a guy who was flipping houses. His name was Wayne Uric and learned a lot from him. And really, he helped lead me and the other people that he would contract with really well because he would show us how to do it and then kind of set us onto the task. We do the task and if we messed up, Yeah, he might poke fun at us a little bit, but he didn't belittle us. He would say, "Okay, well, this is why that happened and this is how you can prevent it from happening in the future. Let's fix the problem and let's go ahead and do it again." He very much valued us as persons. He understood our weaknesses but didn't hold those against us. And he was relentless in teaching us on what to do and what not to do and giving a lot of grace and latitude when we messed it up. Learned a lot from having to deal with people like him. I was a pretty young guy when I was doing that job, maybe like 18, 19 years old. But yeah, it was all downhill from there as far as employment was concerned.
Kent: Well, maybe I'm the outlier because I can think of two people that I really respected as a leader. One was Arnold Cook. He was a professor of mine in my undergrad days. Back at Canadian Bible College in Regina, Saskatchewan, 1,000 years ago when the dinosaurs were still roaming. He wasn't the world's greatest professor. I don't remember a lot of the lectures that he gave, but he began every class with what he called "Cookie's Crumbs." And these were kind of devotionals. These were lessons that he had learned on the mission field. About doing ministry and what that looked like. And those 15, 20 minutes before every class when he gave his crumbs of experience and knowledge, I saw heart for ministry and what it meant to serve the Lord overseas that I would never have seen anywhere else. And Arnold Cook went on to become president of my denomination, Christian Missionary Alliance in Canada. In everything he did, I saw his heart for missions. He cared for people and the most important part of the church he valued and he promoted that. Another name that comes to mind for similar reasons is Dr. Dennis Dirks, my longtime boss at Talbot Seminary. I've seen a number of deans through the years that I have worked with and appreciated so many of them, but Dennis was different in that not only was he kind and forward-thinking and progressive, But he really had a genuine heart for ministry. He started Talbot's work in Ukraine. And there's really no money to make there when you're in Ukraine, and it's hard, and he had to get accreditation, and it was so much work for not much return. But this was his heart. That helped form me. Another time he said, "No, we really want to help this organization called Chosen People Ministry in New York City." And I'm going, but New York City is nowhere close to La Mirada, California. Why would we be pouring our life into them? Because he saw that as a ministry that he wanted to help promote and want to flourish. He was always ministry-focused. And that passion for the gospel and Christ's kingdom, wow, I appreciated that in both of those men. And they helped form me. We've all seen good leaders, and we've all seen bad leaders. That's why I like to take note of what Solomon says about leadership. And Solomon's leadership advice begins with a proverb that, well, so many of us know.
Vicki: Let me read it. It says in Proverbs 14:34, Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin condemns any people.
Kent: This verse on leadership is often—and correctly—applied politically. I mean, here Solomon asserts that when a king makes decisions that are morally and ethically aligned with God's Word, the nation will flourish. He's making the point that godliness leads to good times. And I'm reminded of the similarity of this verse to Psalm 1.
Vicki: That says, "Blessed is the one whose delight is in the law of the Lord. That person is like a tree planted by streams of water. Whatever they do prospers." Wow, that's good news. Maybe. You're not sure?
Kent: Well, it depends on who's listening, but— Go ahead. Well, what Solomon is saying here is that moral integrity is a secret to success in our personal lives as well as our professional leadership roles. And here Solomon warns the international communities that to flourish, they must conform to God's moral standards. This is not new. This is an echo of what God said through Moses in Deuteronomy 28.
Nathan: He said, "If you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you." There is an undeniable political application of this message to nations today.
Kent: In fact, our— one of the friends of Crosstalk, Dr. Bruce Walkie, points that out in his commentary on this particular verse.
Vicki: He says, ultimately, a nation's exaltation depends on its piety and ethics, not on its political, military, or economic greatness. In its external affairs, a sinful nation, among other things, breaks treaties, propagandizes taxes, lies, and bullies weaker nations. In its internal affairs, it allows its judicial system to break down so that criminals and sluggards are rewarded and good citizens are overtaxed and intimidated.
Kent: There's a reason Solomon said righteousness exalts a nation, but sin condemns any people. The fact is, sin has the power to to destroy nation-states. But this passage not only applies to kings and politics, but to the leaders of all organizations. Because kings are leaders, and many of us are leaders as well. And we've seen this truth in action in other organizations, not just politically, but locally, that sin brings destruction, sin hurts, and can destroy and hamper organizations. Haven't you seen that?
Vicki: Oh, sin contaminates. Absolutely. You see it when pastors fall. There was a huge church here in Dallas years ago, and it was just going and blowing, and people were coming to the Lord, and they loved that church. And then the pastor had an affair. And I mean, that church, I don't know if it's recovered yet. And men in the church that were walking with the Lord started having affairs and Yeah, sin corrupts. And you see it with Paul, you see it with school board members or teachers that have sex with kids. And I don't mean to pick on the Catholics because I'm sure the Baptists are every bit as guilty. But, you know, when they have abused boys, people think that's what Christianity is and nobody wants anything to do with it. Right.
Nathan: Sin contaminates. Yeah. I can remember there was a school by us where I lived in Michigan. And the principal was accused of abusing a couple of boys when they were still in elementary school and into middle school. And it just divided the community. Some people were defending him, some people were condemning him. Eventually, he did go to jail for a number of years. He was sentenced to, I don't know, 4 or 5 years in jail and he pled guilty. And just him sinning against a few individuals divided the entire school board, the entire community, the teachers against some of the parents, parents against parents. It was terrible. It was, it was his sin. It wasn't the sins of the teachers. It wasn't the sins of the parents. It was his sins. And yet it still divided the community. Um, it, it just is absolutely terrible. It corrupts. I've seen, uh, similar to Vicki, where, you know, pastors make decisions, and whether they are, uh, enter into affairs or they're sexually abusing members of the congregation or embezzling money from the congregation, that divides too, because half the congregation takes the side of the pastor— no, it's not true, no, it didn't happen— the other side is like, why are you so stupid, why don't you believe this, you know? And, uh, and it really damages people's relationship with Christ. Yeah. And sometimes, sometimes the organization doesn't recover. Yeah.
Kent: Despite what Satan would whisper in our ears, the consequences of sin is always what?
Vicki: Well, James says it's death.
Kent: Yeah. That's why the Old Testament is littered with examples of kings who sinned and because of their sin failed as leaders. And that's also why in the New Testament, God has high standards for the leaders of Christ's Church. It's important that we make sure that those are followed, isn't it?
Nathan: Yeah, absolutely. It's hard. It's— the temptation is to do things based on the world's methods, whether you're being a little deceptive or you're withholding information or you are a bit of a bully. The temptation is to do that in order to get things done. But when you live godliness, it's, it's not a shortcut and it takes longer and it's more frustrating, but it results in dividends. It, it causes us to flourish. It grows over time.
Kent: The primary non-negotiable characteristic for anyone in any culture who would seek to be a leader is righteousness. To live and make decisions in harmony with God's word and character. Because righteousness exalts a nation, but sin condemns any people. So a good leader is a godly leader. But that is not the only requirement of a leader. Solomon goes on in verse 35 to, uh, bring up a different element of leadership.
Vicki: It says, "A king delights in a wise servant, but a shameful servant arouses his fury." Hmm.
Kent: A king delights in a wise servant. The word servant is used in this one verse twice to describe the slave of a master or a servant whose only obligation is to please their master. What rung on the ladder of influence do you think the people that Solomon is describing here— where do they stand on that rung of influence?
Vicki: Are you talking about the servants? Yeah. Low. Maybe even on the ground. Yeah.
Nathan: They don't even get to touch the ladder.
Kent: Yeah. It's interesting that graduation at the school that Vicki, your dad, and I worked at. This one school was very concerned about how people looked and protocol. And so they had all the faculty walk into chapel at designated times in order of importance, of status, which drove your dad crazy.
Vicki: Yeah, that wouldn't be my dad's thing.
Kent: Oh, he hated it. He did it in obedience to what the dean made him do. But he actually wore a robe that was old and tattered. He got off some guy who was retiring. And he kind of slouched down as he did and walked to the front and sat down heavily. He didn't like to be held up. And Solomon here is saying, no, a good leader doesn't only look at the chief advisors around him, but they look around at others who are even— who are of lower status in order to learn from them. Successful leaders Listen to all their followers, the honorable as well as the shameful, because that word shameful literally means to fall in disgrace because of failure, to no longer be trusted or respected. But Solomon says, a king delights in a wise servant, but he also pays attention to a shameful servant. Even one who arouses his fury. He listens to all of those who are under their influence, not just the top ones, but also the bottom one.
Vicki: That's not easy, is it? It can be hard to just listen, period, no matter who you're talking to. If you think you're doing it well and you're right, you may or may not be open to any input from anybody else, much less somebody who's making a mess out of things. Yeah, yeah.
Nathan: And it's a lot easier to accept input and criticism from people that you respect or people that you generally agree with rather than somebody that you think is, uh, an idiot. Yeah, didn't know, right? Or they don't know. Or I, I was trying to think of a better thing to say, but no, it's if you don't have a high opinion of someone, you know, most leaders are gonna kind of hold them at arm's length. They're going to try to ignore them. They're going to not give them the time of day.
Vicki: Oh, that reminds me of being edited. If I write something and I'm proud of it and you've got a red pen and I think, wow, that was a good edit. Thank you. Which is rare. But if you're just an idiot with a red pen and you're like, well, this was an incomplete sentence. And I'm like, I know that it was for effect. Quit it.
Kent: Don't piss my writing off. Yeah. It's easier to listen to people who are influential and successful than people who are not influential and may be considered by some to be failures. So why does Solomon believe that listening to everyone, even those sitting on the bottom of the social ladder, an essential component of leadership?
Vicki: I don't know the answer to that. Why does he? Why would you ask somebody that is indeed a loser or losing Hey, help me out with this.
Kent: Or insignificant. The same question. Only the leaders who take time to listen to all of their followers, even the shameful ones, only then will the leader fully understand the situation they are in. They need to have an understanding of their own leadership situation from all perspectives, not just their own. And we see loads of examples of leaders in the Bible who benefited from the insights of insignificant people. Do you remember Genesis 41? Oh yeah.
Nathan: Our protagonist Joseph, even though he's the protagonist in our story, he's a nobody. He's less than a nobody. He's been forgotten and lost in jail for several years. Falsely accused.
Kent: Yeah. Abandoned by his family. I mean, it's hard to get much lower than that, right?
Nathan: Slave, falsely accused, left in jail, forgotten in jail. And yet, Pharaoh listened to him. And he was right about the interpretation of Pharaoh's dreams. It preserved not only Egypt, but even the surrounding countries around them during the 7 years of famine. Yeah.
Kent: And if he only listened to the wise men who were circling his throne. He would never have heard the advice he needed to save his country. All right, another example that comes to mind is Jethro and Moses in Exodus 18. Jethro was a pagan leader of a— what was he? He was a priest of a false religion coming to check on his son-in-law, Moses, who had left him, coming to check on his son-in-law Moses, who had left him and took his wife and kid away from him years ago. And Jethro was mad and coming to give his son a lecture. How dare you do this? Moses came in humility to listen to his father-in-law Jethro. And took his advice. When Jethro, who knew nothing significant about leadership, came and told him that he should change his leadership style and appoint others to help him, Moses listened to his father-in-law. And his father-in-law listened to Moses when he told him that his god, this pagan god, was not the true God. Jethro listened to Moses and sacrificed to the God of Israel. Moses listened to Jethro. Boy, listening to others, even those who disagree with us, pays off. But Vicki, you probably remember the story from 1 Samuel 25 when David was going after Nabal and got interrupted in his pursuit of justice.
Vicki: Oh, I do know this story. There was a guy who was an absolute idiot. And he was pompous, and he was hard. And he was, he was like, I just imagine driving down the interstate with him and him just cussing out all the other people that are driving, and he's the worst driver, you know, just one of those kind of guys. David was a fugitive, he was running. And there was a wealthy guy, the one I'm telling you about, Nabal. And Nabal just He was just a jerk. And he goes out and he insults David's men. And so, David set out to destroy Nabal's household. But Nabal's wife— this is one of the good stories in the Bible— his wife went out, her name was Abigail. And she took a bunch of servants and a bunch of— I can't remember donkeys or camels or whatever they drove back then. And she gave him food and welcomed him. And she said, My husband's a fool. Don't harm us. And she was humble, and David listened to her, and he praised her wisdom.
Kent: So a man who was anointed to be king listened to a woman who came and interrupted him in his pursuit of supposed justice. And that was good advice that saved David from a mistake because he listened. Not only to people in power, but also to the woman who met him on the side of the road. One last example, Nathan, you remember in Acts 8, the Ethiopian eunuch?
Nathan: Yeah, there was an Ethiopian— there was an Ethi—
Kent: it's not just Ethiopian.
Nathan: There was an Ethiopian eunuch who was highly educated by the Queen of Cush. And he was reading the scroll of Isaiah while he was being brought home. But he was willing to stop and listen to Philip, who essentially was a nobody. He was one of Christ's followers, but he doesn't know that, who ran up to him and said, "Hey, do you understand what you're reading there?" "No, I don't understand what I'm reading. Can you explain it to me?" I mean, Vicki, right before we started recording this, was talking about the opportunity she's had to share the gospel. But I mean, who has ever had a softball gospel presentation like this? "Hey, do you know what you're reading?" "No, I don't understand this. Can you explain it to me?" "Sure." And he trusted in Christ and was baptized at that point. And not only his life, but his community was changed as a result of that.
Kent: So this high official's life was changed because he listened to a seemingly insignificant person. Right. It's important to— for leaders to pay attention to everyone, not only those on the top of the ladder, but also those closer to the bottom. Because great leaders are godly leaders, but they're also good listeners, because they know they need the perspective of others, even those at the bottom rung of the social ladder, in order to lead effectively. So, what does this mean for us as leaders? What about application? I think Solomon is telling us all who are leaders, do what is right, morally right, not what is expedient. And treat people with the kindness and generosity God shows them. Don't be tempted to take shortcuts through sin because those shortcuts always lead to a dead end. Because righteousness exalts a nation, but sin condemns any people. Because successful leaders are godly leaders. But secondly, in addition to doing what's right, spend more time listening than talking. And make sure you listen to people on the outside of influence. Because sometimes those who look at your problem from the outside have a better perspective on your problem than those who are trapped on the inside with you. A wise leader, a king like Solomon, will delight in the wise person as well as the ignorant, because successful leaders are also listening leaders. Solomon was a king and a great leader, so let's pay attention to his counsel on leadership, because we can learn from mistakes but we don't have to make them ourselves. Pay close attention to Solomon's counsel on leadership. We can learn from mistakes, but we don't have to make them.
Brian: So what's the secret known by great leaders? As a wise leader leads, that leader also needs to listen. I trust that today's discussion of God's word has been helpful and serves as an encouragement to not just be hearers of the word, but doers. Together, let's bring God's word to life, to our lives this week. The Crosstalk Podcast is a production of Crosstalk Global, equipping biblical communicators so every culture hears God's voice. To find out more about this educational nonprofit organization, please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org. Www.crosstalkglobal.org. Crosstalk just finished successful trainings in Bucharest, Moldova, Southern California, and Kansas this season. We're getting ready for another training in Kenya this summer, and Cuba and Nepal in the fall. Help us train the next generation of biblical communicators. All you have to do is click "Donate" in the show notes and make a donation of any size. You can also support this show by rating it on whatever platform you're listening to us. Be sure to listen next week as we continue to learn from God's wisdom in the book of Proverbs. You won't want to miss it.
Kent: Give Nabal the justice he deserves. I know this story.
Vicki: Let me do it. Let me do it. I'm sorry. You just, you were all over. You were wrong. I'm right. And now I'm going to be right again. Oh, I do know this story. There was a guy who was an absolute