Why submit to moral instruction?
Text: Proverbs
Hosts:
Tim DeFor
Vicki Hitzges
Nathan Norman
Narrator: Brian French
The CrossTalk Podcast is a production of CrossTalk Global, equipping biblical communicators, so every culture hears God’s voice. To find out more, or to support the work of this ministry please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org
Produced by Nathan James Norman/Untold Podcast Production
© 2026 CrossTalk Global
Brian: We've often heard the saying, "It is better to give than to receive." But according to Solomon, there is at least one huge exception to this axiom. When would it be better to receive than give? Listen in as we find the answer in the book of Proverbs. Today, while Dr. Kent is away teaching with Crosstalk, join Vicki Hitzkes, Nathan Norman, and guest host Tim Dufour as they discover Solomon's insight on when not to give in Proverbs 10:8. Welcome to Crosstalk, a Christian podcast whose goal is for us to encourage each other to not only increase our knowledge of the Bible, but to take the next step beyond information into transformation. Our goal is to bring the Bible to life into all our lives. I'm Brian French. Today, Vicki Hitzkes, Nathan Norman, and Tim Dufour continue our journey through Proverbs. If you have a Bible handy, turn to Proverbs chapter 10, verse 8, as we join their discussion.
Nathan: We know as Christians we are saved by grace through faith. The work of Jesus has brought us into the kingdom of God. In fact, this recording will go out on Good Friday when we are celebrating the finished work of Jesus on the cross. But once we're Christians, there are ethical realities that we're supposed to follow. Vicki and Tim, which commandments are hardest for people to follow?
Vicki: Oh golly, I think that depends on who the person is and where they are in life, don't you think?
Nathan: That's right. Absolutely.
Tim: Of course, speaking completely hypothetically about somebody else, Things like don't lie because of saving our skin, or don't covet because nobody can really see that it's happening. And then there's positive ones like love your enemies or forgive those who have harmed you. Very difficult. Yeah.
Nathan: Yeah, it doesn't feel positive, does it? Love your enemies. Bleh.
Vicki: Yeah.
Nathan: It's humiliating. It's humiliating, Tim.
Tim: Yes. Yeah, for sure. It looks weak.
Nathan: Yeah. Vicki, what do you think are some of the hardest ones for people to follow?
Vicki: Oh, I think it's just situational. I think if you're married and you are not happy in your marriage and you meet somebody, the adultery one would be hard. I think— I just think it's all situational.
Nathan: Yeah, that's true.
Vicki: I remember when I first got married, shopping for furniture, there's this huge building, huge building called the Dallas Trade Mart, and it's just— it's filled with the furniture that store owners go to to buy the furniture they buy to fill their stores. I wanted everything on all 15 or 16 floors that I saw. And I mean, I wanted it. And I'm not a particularly covetous person, but man, I was for a year or two. Now I go in there and I don't— I mean, get the stuff in my house out of my house. I'm sick of it now. But it just depends on who you are and when it hits you in life.
Nathan: Yeah. No, that's a good point. That's a good point. I know culturally right now, Sexual purity is on the outs. You know, if you say that sex should be for marriage between one man and one woman, it's, ah, it's the most scandalous thing you could possibly say.
Vicki: And after marriage. Boy, you don't see that on television, huh?
Nathan: Yeah, yeah, I know. Lots of push. I get pushback from my congregation every time I say that. And in every congregation I've been in, so much pushback on that. I can even remember talking about it one Sunday because it was in the text, and I had an older person in the congregation say, "Ah, that's for the kids." Really? Really? I don't know if you age out of sexual purity, but this person thought, yeah, once you get past a certain point, you're, you know, it doesn't matter anymore.
Tim: You're good.
Nathan: It matters. It matters to God.
Vicki: It does matter. Everything matters.
Nathan: Yeah. Why is it so hard? Why is following these commandments so hard?
Tim: I think one of the reasons, kind of like Vicki was saying, situationally, we don't want our freedom, which we value so highly, to be restricted because we think that freedom— with freedom comes joy and happiness. I think it's hard sometimes when somebody is in an addictive situation that they know better, but they can't because— but that's a little bit different than receiving the guidance, because they might be convinced that it's true, they're just unable. But I think it's the idea of thinking that my way is better than God's way, and who are you to tell me what's best for me? The individualization of morality. Yeah.
Vicki: Well, and I think maybe there's a situation where you want something and it's right, right there, and God says don't steal, but it's right there. You know, on a normal Tuesday you wouldn't want to ever even think about stealing, but today it's right there. You know, it's just situational.
Tim: The old saying of never underestimate your own ability to rationalize the worst of behaviors.
Vicki: Yes, yes.
Nathan: Absolutely. Yeah, that's a history book, really. It is. But even though it's hard, we need to receive moral instruction. Why? Why should we receive moral instruction? Solomon knew how difficult this was, but he instructs us to accept the commandments of God because the alternative is devastating. Vicki, you want to read us Proverbs 10:8?
Vicki: Yes, it says, The wise of heart will receive commandments, but a babbling fool will come to ruin.
Nathan: So once again, Solomon contrasts the wise person with the foolish one. Here, the wise person receives the commandments of God while the fool distributes his foolishness. So the image Solomon's given us is, yeah, you're going to receive the commandments of God, and it's hard to receive commandments. It's hard to receive moral instruction. It really is, because that points out something that's wrong within you that needs to change. So the wise person is going to receive that. And if you don't receive it, you will be someone who distributes your idiocracy. You will distribute, you will freely give out your foolishness. You only have one of two options: you can be wise and receive, or you can be a fool and give. Why do you think it's so much easier to distribute ignorance than to receive wisdom?
Tim: I think part of it goes back to the self-rationalization. Part of it is when you share foolishness, it aligns with the selfishness that other people want. So you're not really challenging somebody's behavior, you're giving them permission to behave badly, and everybody likes to receive. They're not going to push back, they're not going to attack you for telling them something stupid that they want to believe to be true.
Nathan: Yeah, yeah. Vicki, have you ever known anyone who, uh, peddles in foolishness, who likes to share their unwise beliefs?
Vicki: I used to meet somebody every morning and we would work out together, and he was clever and he had clever friends, but I wouldn't call any of them moral. And he would tell me with great delight what one of his other immoral friends was doing. Like, one owned a company, and he was powerful, and he would take a product that somebody else had. And because he was very wealthy, he would violate the copyright laws of another company. And when that company sued him, he was bigger, wealthier, stronger, And he would make so much money before they were able to sue him that he might put that other company out of business. And my friend just thought that was fabulous because it happened often. And I just thought it was despicable. But oh, he thought that was great because it happened all the time because his friend was bigger and more powerful than these other companies. And in a way, that's distributing ignorance, because he would tell me, oh, wait till I tell you what so-and-so's done. And I'd think, oh, that's awful.
Tim: Yeah.
Nathan: Wow. Wow. Hmm.
Tim: Not long ago, I had a conversation with somebody, and they had confessed to me and to their wife. And they had texted me and said, I really need to meet, it's an emergency. And then we met and they had confessed that they had cheated on their wife, and they said it's because they've been unhappy in their marriage for a long time, and somebody was questioning his morality, his character, and saying that he had lied, and he was defending himself and saying, "Well, I can't believe they would say that I would lie," and I said, Why are you thinking that's not as bad as cheating on your wife? And he just didn't see it. He was so blinded. So I think one of the reasons it's easier to distribute ignorance is we don't see how foolish our focus on the small things when we're ignoring the big things.
Nathan: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. A number of years ago, I was on a board for a fairly large organization, and the main leader in that group just tried to control every meeting in the board by talking nonstop. Like, he wouldn't come up for air, he wouldn't come up for breath. It was almost impossible to get a word in edgewise unless you interrupted him and talked over him loudly for at least a full minute. Because he would just keep going and it was pointless drivel. But he thought he was controlling the situation. And then he would run the timer down so you couldn't vote against him, or he would just only give one viewpoint so that you would vote for whatever he wanted. And there was no time for discussion or for, for debate. And yeah, and honestly, it worked. It really worked. I actually resigned from that group because I said, I don't want anything to do with this. I don't want to be a rubber stamp. I'm not voting yes on something that I can't even debate. But it was effective. And I think sometimes our ignorance, sometimes our foolishness is easier than doing the hard work of gaining consensus, of doing introspection, or admitting that we're wrong. Or that we are ignorant or don't know something. So this is a short proverb: The wise of heart will receive commandments, but a babbling fool will come to ruin. This goes a little beyond the scope of that text. But Tim and Vicki, how can we become receivers of wisdom over proclaimers of foolishness? What practical advice would you give?
Vicki: I would tell you it's just common sense Be a receiver of wisdom because you're a proclaimer of foolishness if you're foolish. And if you have done foolish things a couple times, you've realized that is not the way to go. You just realize it's not. And I'll put it in a dieting realm. If you foolishly eat a bunch of sugar and a bunch of— like, if you're a Blue Bell addict, oh, how I can relate to that. If you eat a bunch, you are going to look bad, you are going to feel bad, you are going to Don't do it. Be a receiver of wisdom. Eat healthy. You'll look good. You'll feel good. You'll everything. Your clothes will be better. Everything about that. Be a receiver of wisdom. Is that easy? Oh no, it is not. But do it. Just do it. Just do it. Everything about your life is going to be better. And that's true pretty much of— I mean, it's just true. If God says it, do it. My dad used to say to me, Vicki, God isn't out to kill your fun. There's a reason he told you to do that, and then sometimes he'd say, let's sit down and talk about why you think God would tell you to do that.
Tim: That's really good. That's really helpful. Something I think would be good for me to continue to learn to put into practice is to listen first. So when somebody brings something that I take in as a criticism, the first thing that I become is defensive, and I want to tell them why my way is right or why what I did was— I had the good motives behind it, what was my intent. I want to self-protect. Yeah, but learning that if I listen, even if somebody's motives might not be pure, even if they're mostly wrong, if I can listen and say, okay, but what of what they're saying might be true, and take that to heart, that really diffuses their power to be attacking, and it empowers me to learn from them. So listening to criticism, even if the person is a fool, don't make it about them. Yeah, but what about your flaws? It's the plank versus the speck in your eye idea. There's a saying that I've heard and I've repeated. I don't even know its origin. I'd like to think it's from the Bible, but I don't know. I should look. It's a wise person can learn from any fool, but a fool can learn from no one.
Nathan: Oh, wow.
Tim: So the idea of like somebody, everybody has something you can learn from, which means I need to listen. Instead of always trying to correct or defend.
Nathan: Yeah, it's hard to do. It's hard to get to that point, especially if you're being criticized, especially if you're being attacked. But as Solomon reminds us, the wise of heart will receive commandments, but a babbling fool will come to ruin. Why should we receive moral instruction? So we don't become fools who distribute our foolishness. In this situation, It is better to receive than to give.
Brian: Why should we accept correction? So we don't become fools and spread our foolishness. I trust that today's discussion of God's word has been helpful and served as an encouragement to not just be hearers of the word, but doers. Together, let's bring God's word to life, to our lives this week. The Crosstalk Podcast is a production of Crosstalk Global, equipping biblical communicators so every culture hears God's voice. To find out more about this educational nonprofit organization, please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org. Crosstalk is training leaders in Bucharest, Moldova, Southern California, Kenya, and Kansas over the next few weeks. Help us train the next generation of biblical communicators. All you have to do is click Donate in the show notes and make a donation of any size. You can also support this show by rating it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you find it. Be sure to listen next Friday as we continue to learn from God's wisdom in the book of Proverbs. You won't want to miss it.
Nathan: As I frequently tell people when I'm teaching them preaching, I'll say, Jesus reminds us that God will not hear us on account of our many words. So what makes you think anyone else will?
Tim: And he loves you. So, yeah, I like that.
Nathan: I'm not as patient as God.