Is it possible to forgive the unforgiveable?
Text: Beyond Proverbs 20:22
Hosts:
J. Kent Edwards
Vicki Hitzges
Nathan Norman
Narrator: Brian French
The CrossTalk Podcast is a production of CrossTalk Global, equipping biblical communicators, so every culture hears God’s voice. To find out more, or to support the work of this ministry please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org
Produced by Nathan James Norman/Untold Podcast Production
© 2026 CrossTalk Global
Brian: Some conversations come easily. They happen when we gather with good friends over a meal and share how things are going at work and home, celebrate milestones we've reached, and talk about exciting plans for the future. But there are also times when conversations become difficult. Like when we have to confront an underperforming employee. Bad news is hard to deliver and often not well received. Or like when we disagree with our spouse about money or child rearing, emotions can flare and conversations can become heated. Or like when we have to negotiate with a difficult client in the workplace, how can you tell a customer no without losing an important contract? But one of the tough, toughest conversations we can have is with a person or organization that has betrayed us. In our last podcast, Solomon advised us in Proverbs, chapter 20, verse 22, not to seek revenge against our enemies, but to trust God to deliver justice. That's solid advice we should remember. But this week we want to take the conversation further, beyond simply refusing retribution to offering forgiveness to our enemies. Jesus tells Peter in Matthew 18 that he should forgive people even if they have sinned against him 77 times. And in the Lord's Prayer he said that those who refuse to forgive their debtors will not be forgiven by their Father in Heaven. Forgiveness is essential for Christians, but it is not easy. Forgiveness conflicts with our natural instincts for self protection, justice and self worth. It can feel like weakness and an excuse for bad behavior, while anger and resentment give us a sense of moral superiority. Is it possible to do what Jesus commanded? Is it possible to forgive the unforgivable? Today, special guest Kevin Hazelton joins Nathan Norman, Vicki Hitchkiss, and Kent Edwards as they go one step further than refusing to seek revenge. Today we are discussing forgiveness. Welcome to CrossTalk, a Christian podcast whose goal is for us to encourage each other to not only increase our knowledge of the Bible, but to take the next step beyond information into transformation. Our goal is to bring the Bible to life, into all our lives. I'm Brian French. Today, Kevin Hazelton, Dr. Kent Edwards, Vicki Hitskus and Nathan Norman go deeper in their discussion of the Book of Proverbs. If you have a Bible handy, turn to Proverbs, chapter 20, verse 22 as we join their discussion.
Kent: Kevin, welcome to the podcast.
Kevin: Thank you. I appreciate being here. It's good to be back at the podcast.
Kent: For those of you who did not meet you in your earlier podcast recording, would you mind introducing yourself, what are you doing and where are you located?
Kevin: Sure. I am the senior pastor at First Baptist Church in Salina, Kansas. Right in the heartland, right in the middle of the United States. And I have been at this church for over 29 years. Almost 30.
Kent: Wow.
Kevin: Yeah. I began as a youth pastor and associate pastor for 14 years, and now I've been the senior pastor for 15 years.
Kent: Kevin is also an instructor over at CrossTalk Global. He spent a number of years in Mombasa, Kenya. And, Kevin, you and I just made our way back from Havana, Cuba, where we are looking at starting a new cohort there. And as we were talking in the airport, you talked about some episodes of forgiveness that you have experienced in your own life.
Kevin: Yes. Both personally and seeing some amazing forgiveness take place in ways where it seemed like it was unforgivable what had happened. So it's really been impactful for me. Yes, absolutely.
Kent: Yeah, I was stunned by that because as Brian just mentioned, forgiveness is very difficult to do. But yet you've experienced some of this privately and seen it in the lives of others.
Kevin: Right. You know, when I think of just a private forgiveness or a personal, one thing that comes to my mind happened early in my ministry, I would say, or after I became senior pastor, a time when. When I unknowingly offended somebody in my church very bad.
Kent: And.
Kevin: And it was in the middle of a sermon and something I had said, they felt like it was in a personal attack against them. A couple. Wow. And. Yeah. And so when I. When I found out, I was blessed that the man, after a few weeks, told me specifically what I had done and how they interpreted what I had said, and even some others had felt that I had done something towards them. And so I kind of went back.
Vicki: And read that towards that couple. Or. Okay.
Kevin: Yep, Yep. Something that I had said that they felt like was just almost an attack in front of the whole church family.
Kent: Wow.
Kevin: Or a sliding of them. And so I went back and kind of reviewed what had happened and what I'd said. And I hadn't seen them face to face yet, but I wrote them a brief note just acknowledging that. Wow. You know, I can see why it was like that and why you felt like I had offended you. And I asked them if I. In my note, I said, would you allow me to come to your house and ask you personally ask you for forgiveness? And they. I got a phone call saying Friday at 10, or, you know, come on over for coffee, something like that, you know. And so when I got there, we sat down and I just, before I could almost finish confessing that, yes, they were right to feel the way they did. But even though I didn't mean to do It. I had done that, and it had broken a relationship, and I asked them to forgive me. And I remember the man saying, you're forgiven, and it's in the past. And what really amazed me is that over the course of the next 10 or 12 years, that couple, who were one of the oldest in our church, probably became my biggest allies.
Nathan: Really?
Kevin: Absolutely. I mean, just tremendous respect for each other. And they had moved away, and when they would come back, they were intentional about me coming to be with them, and I was blessed to be able to officiate that man's funeral. And, you know, the beauty of the forgiveness is that what had happened in the past was in the past, and our relationship was actually so much stronger having gone through that act of forgiveness, which was really the first step in a reconciliation. So it's not only a story of forgiveness, it's a story of reconciliation. And I just. It just amazes me, even today.
Kent: Yeah, that's powerful.
Nathan: And that's. That's huge on the couple's part to reach out and say, hey, we were offended. This is hard. Right. Because Jesus, as we talked about in the introduction, he does. He goes a step further than just don't take vengeance. Don't do. Don't do anything. And it's not even wait for the offended party to. To come and fess up. Right. Hey, they did this wrong. And it's their job to come and say, hey, I was wrong. Can you forgive me?
Kevin: They.
Nathan: No, Jesus is bent on us going to the person saying, hey, what you did was offensive, and I want to offer you forgiveness if you're willing to accept it.
Kent: Right.
Kevin: Absolutely.
Nathan: That's horrifying.
Kevin: Right.
Nathan: Because it's very accurate.
Kevin: And we often assume the other person knows that what they did was wrong or that. So there's so many assumptions that tend to go along with unforgiveness and breaking of relationships.
Kent: But it's also interesting, as I listen to your story, the humility that you demonstrated, you know, it'd be very easy to say, well, you misinterpreted me, and that wasn't my intent. And, you know, why would you think that I would say such a thing? But to come in and say, no, I can see how you could understand that, and I will ask for forgiveness. That's. That humility is important in the whole forgiveness process.
Kevin: Well, yeah, it was important for me. And. And it kind of even reminds me, like, I could have said, well, I'm sorry. I'm sorry that you thought I was speaking about you. Yeah.
Nathan: Or the non Apology. I'm sorry that you feel that way.
Kent: Right, yeah.
Kevin: I'm sorry.
Kent: That sounds like a politician.
Kevin: But I remember when we had young daughters, when they had done something wrong, we talked about the importance of not only saying I'm sorry, but then saying, will you forgive me? Because when you ask for forgiveness, you are owning the sin. When you say you're sorry, you can be sorry about that, the consequences, or like you said, you know, like a child. I'm sorry. You're stupid. That's not an apology. Right?
Nathan: Yeah.
Vicki: I mean, yeah.
Kevin: So you can be sorry without owning, owning your role or your sin. Forgiveness forces you to say, you're naming the sin. I did this. Will you forgive me?
Kent: Yeah. And it's interesting that that forgiveness brought not only healing but growth. Growth in your relationship. Healing and growth in the church because others knew about it. And that's a powerful example. So that others can see this is how we deal with sin. This is how we deal with broken relationships. That may be one of the reasons why your church has enjoyed harmony for so many years.
Kevin: Well, I pray that it is. And we need to all keep working at that. I mean. Yeah, yeah.
Kent: It seems to me that forgiveness is harder when the offense has been greater. I am struck by Joseph in the Old Testament being sold, who was sold into slavery by his brothers. He forgave his brothers for selling him into slavery.
Vicki: Well, they were going to kill him first. He was lucky to get sold into slavery.
Nathan: Oh, thank you guys. You should be thanking us.
Vicki: Yeah.
Kent: No, it seems the bigger the offense, the harder forgiveness becomes. I've certainly found that smaller things I find easier to forgive bigger things. That's tough.
Kevin: Especially. Especially when the act is intentional.
Kent: Yes.
Kevin: You know, and I've seen that. I've been blessed to see that in some of the people in my own church and here. And so I live in Salina, Kansas. It's a community of about 50,000. So it's, you know, big for Kansas but small for a lot of other places. But occasionally something will happen that just sends shockwaves throughout the whole community. About two weeks ago, there was a 14 year old boy that was murdered. Oh, you know, shockwaves throughout the community. And that event reminded me of an event that happened about 10 or 11 years ago where a 17 year old girl from our church was murdered. And you know, and like you said, the fact that it was so much grander than saying something that was misinterpreted had ramifications. Obviously, you know, a death of a young lady and it was intentional so what amazed me through that situation was seeing forgiveness offered to those who committed the act of murder by those who were most affected by it. So her family members, her father, member of our church. And seeing him. Forgive those people who had killed his daughter was amazing. And I had the opportunity. I visited with the one who actually pulled the trigger. Visited him in jail multiple times before the trial. And I was blessed to be able to be kind of the go between and. And let him know that the father forgives him for what he did.
Vicki: Did he care?
Kevin: Yeah. I mean, he was, I think, humbled by that. And he was startled by that. Startled that somebody would forgive him for taking the life of his own daughter. Yeah. But it's interesting. I've heard this man share his testimony about that with groups before.
Vicki: The killer you're talking about, or the father?
Kevin: No, no, the father. Yeah. And he and another man in the church have shared about ways in which they've had to forgive people, different situations, but were very intentional. And I remember one time, as they were sharing a testimony together at the church, one of them said, talked about how critical it was to forgive. Like seeing this man be able to forgive a killer empowered the other man to forgive a spouse, an ex spouse. And the comment that was made was this. Refusing to forgive is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. You know, and that's true. The man here in our church. I mean, if you have a child die and you refuse to give or forgive, that what, your loss will eat at you for the rest of your life, every day of your life, you know. But by forgiving, that has changed everything.
Vicki: Kevin, do you have advice on how to forgive?
Kevin: Well, when I think about how to forgive, it helps me to think about what forgiveness is. And there was a book I read called Amish Grace that deals with the murder of several Amish girls at a schoolhouse in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, many years ago in 2006, it was a national story, very powerful. And the authors of this book, Amish Grace, describe. They describe three different key things. One is forgiveness, one is pardon, and one is reconciliation. Because oftentimes you hear the expression, well, to forgive is to forget. Or if you have. If you forgive, you have to forget. Right. And if I forgive somebody, it gives them a right to, you know, continue to do what they're doing. Like, if you're an abusive situation, you forgive someone, well, you're just enabling them. But that's really not what forgiveness is. They define forgiveness as to forgive is to forego the right to get revenge or to give up the right for vengeance. It doesn't mean that the relationship is restored or reconciled. That's another step. And it doesn't even mean there's pardon. For example, my friend refused the right to get even with the people who'd killed his daughter by, you know, like the man had a son, he didn't get even by killing this man's son. The man, the pardon, he didn't. Pardon often comes through punishment. So he's still being punished for what he did because he's in prison now. Right, but that's often done by like judicial, you know, the court of law does that. The reconciliation is the, is the restoring of the, the relationship.
Vicki: So had they had a relationship?
Kevin: No. So in this case they didn't. But like in the case of the man in my church who I defended as this couple, they, they, they could have, if they could have started saying things about me, to get, get even with me. Right. And choose. They chose instead, they chose to forgive me to, to not get even. And then together we work to reconcile that relationship stronger than ever. So it helps me to recognize that I can forgive someone whether they ask for it, whether they, I can forgive someone without the relationship being restored, because that's a two way thing. So I can forgive someone when I say I'm giving up my right to, to get even. And in the process of that, I'm overcoming those bitter feelings toward what you've done to me. And so because of that, there have been many times when I have, have understanding that forgiveness is me not getting even with you. It's helped me then to do those steps of, of either being able to tell that person if I have an opportunity to, or sometimes you don't even have an opportunity to tell that person, but you can still forgive that person by not getting even.
Kent: So Solomon's advice is don't get revenge. That's the first step.
Kevin: Exactly, exactly.
Kent: The second step is to say, yeah, let's restore relationship.
Kevin: Right, Right. And there are times when, I mean, reconciliation is a two way street. Both people have to be fully committed to it and it requires forgiveness before that can take place. So that's the steps that follow after that.
Kent: So what happens when someone decides they don't accept that you deserved it? So you're willing to restore the relationship, you're willing to forgive them. They don't even acknowledge that they did it.
Kevin: I think that's where you know Matthew, chapter 18, you know, Jesus, that's a chapter about broken relationships within the church. Right. And I really think that when Jesus talks about, you know, someone sins against you, a brother or sister, you know, you go to that person and it says that if they listen, you've won your brother over. And that's what happened with myself and this couple in the church. There was an acknowledgment of sin, a forgiveness, and then the reconciliation. We were won over to each other. That's the whole goal. That's the ministry of reconciliation that we have in Christ. So, and if that doesn't work, you know, the two or three others, the church, the last step of the church is to treat, you know, treat them as a pagan or a tax collector, Meaning you recognize that the relationship is either broken or doesn't exist. Doesn't mean you attack a person or try to get even with them. It means you. You. You reach out to them with the gospel, and you. You show the gospel in words and actions and in all the ways that you do that. So. So if they don't want to reconcile, I can still forgive someone that doesn't want to reconcile with me.
Nathan: That's kind of. It's kind of the levels you were talking about.
Kent: That.
Nathan: That first level. Level of, hey, I'm going to get rid of bitterness. I'm not going to hold this against you anymore. And the phrase that I'll use in those situations, maybe they are not part of the church or my church, or they've gone somewhere else, and it tends to stick in people's minds, is especially in the case you were talking about, where someone knows that they've done something to you and they don't care you deserved it, blah, blah, blah. I'll say, you know, what you did was wrong. If you ever want forgiveness, just ask, right? So that opens the door, right? You want to come down five years later and finally there's conviction. You know what? That wasn't okay. Just ask. You know, it's here. We'll start that process. I'm not holding it against you.
Kent: Now.
Nathan: I'm losing my bitterness. I'm not trusting you right now either. But trust is not forgiveness. But if you ever want forgiveness, all you have to do is ask.
Kevin: Yeah. You know, I shared about that book, Amish Grace, what amazes me about that story. As I read the book. This man who killed these Amish girls at a school. He went to the school. There were 26 children there. His name was Charles Roberts. He lived in that area. He knew some of the families, and they knew him. He wasn't Amish, but there was a relationship there, and he went There and released the boys and the adults, the teachers. And then he shot ten of the girls. I think one, two, three, five or six of them died. And then he killed himself. And he had said, I'm angry with God and I need to punish some Christian girls to get even with him. So he was blaming God for something now. And what he was, in a sense saying is, I cannot forgive God for what he did, so I'm going to get even. And his way to get even with God was to kill Amish girls. So it was. That was his motivation for it. But what truly was amazing is how the Amish people responded to that. Because the same day that he did this heinous act, many Amish people went to visit his family and comfort his family members because they had lost a husband or a son that very day as well, just like the Amish had.
Vicki: Isn't that incredible?
Kevin: Yeah. I mean, it just blows my mind. I can't comprehend that even. But they immediately forgave Roberts and showed compassion to his family. Instead of going and getting even by killing his family, they gave up the right and they began the reconciliation process that very day by showing love and compassion. And. And it was so amazing that at his funeral, there were more Amish people at his funeral than non Amish people.
Kent: Yeah. That's a remarkable demonstration of forgiveness. Although it seems to me that there are times when the greater the injustice, the greater the betrayal, the more time it may take to get to that. In our own country, we had a murder of prominent Republican spokesperson Charlie Kirk. It was amazing to see what. A week later, there was a funeral, and his wife stood up and offered forgiveness. That's wonderful to see that. But sometimes it takes us a journey to get there. It's one thing to get to fall over a step. It's another thing to get hit by a car. The recovery process takes a bit longer, but it's the intention to get there. It's the intention to say, I want to reconcile.
Kevin: The story of these Amish in Pennsylvania is amazing because they came to the funeral. And so, like the funeral director, his. As he recalled that moment, he said that I was lucky enough to be at the cemetery when the Amish families of the children who had been killed came to greet Amy Roberts, that's the wife of the man who did the murders, and offer their forgiveness. That is something I'll never forget, not ever. I knew that I was witnessing a miracle. Forgiveness is a miracle. We can't do that even on our own power. It comes from God, you know, and then one of this woman's family members who was also there and saw this miracle, she said that about 35 or 40Amish came to the burial. They shook our hands and cried. They embraced Amy and the children. There were no grudges, no hard feelings, only forgiveness. It's just hard to believe that they were able to do that. Wow. The power of forgiveness is. Well, they say to errors, human, to forgive. Divine. Forgiveness is a divine act. And when we forgive, we are acknowledging the forgiveness we've received from Christ and through the power of the Spirit.
Kent: Kind.
Kevin: Of offering that same divine act to others. Just amazing. Amen.
Nathan: For those who struggle with forgiveness of any level, maybe a good step is to pray. God, I want to want to forgive.
Kent: Right?
Nathan: Because I, you know, I've been in places I don't want to forgive that person.
Kent: Right.
Nathan: Like, it's not even a. It's hard to forgive that person. I don't want to forgive that person. So God is, help me to want to want to forgive that person. Right. I'm going so far, this is kindergarten. I don't even want to do what you're telling me to do. Help me to get at least to that point so that I can then get to the point where I can extend it. It's just. It's crawling on our face towards God. And he meets us in our. In our weakness.
Kevin: Yeah. And, you know, without the empowering of the Holy Spirit to do that, I. I don't know how you can do it. But he is the one that empowers us and enables us to do what is impossible in our flesh to do. Yeah.
Kent: And I found it interesting, Vicki, your father, Haddon Robinson, talked about forgiveness. And how do you know that you have genuinely forgiven someone? If I recall him correctly, he would say that if you remember what someone did and you harbor emotion, I forgive, but I'll never forget. That's not forgiveness. If you're nursing a wound, say, well, I forgave them, but, man, I'm waiting to see how God gets them back. That's not forgiveness. Your dad used the example if. If I forgot money for lunch. And Vicki, I asked if I could borrow 10 bucks to go get something to eat. A couple days later, we meet each other. I pay you back. Chances are, in a month or two, you wouldn't even remember that that exchange had taken place. It was a minor offense. It was paid in full. There's absolutely no emotion around it. That's forgiveness. You will never forget the offense. But that doesn't mean you harbor A grudge. It's not something you nourish. There is no emotional baggage anymore. And when that's done, then you have genuinely forgiven. I found that helpful in understanding forgiveness. And have I actually really granted forgiveness? Or am I? Or is that emotion still with me? There's no question that forgiveness is a big part of the Christian life. And if there's ever someone who had reason not to forgive, it was probably our savior on the cross. But when he is hanging there and when he says, in the midst of.
Vicki: The offense, father, forgive them. They know not what they do. Absolutely stunning words, isn't it? Yeah, it is. Instead of smoke them and make it hurt.
Nathan: Ah, you're speaking to the cry of my heart.
Kent: I know.
Vicki: Really, that's. That's just amazing. Yeah.
Kent: And I think that's what the people below the cross were expecting. If you really are the Son of God, you'll do something vengeful.
Kevin: Yep.
Kent: But he demonstrated no the same way the Father welcomed back the prodigal son and ran to the son, threw a robe and put a ring on his finger and welcomed him fully into the family. That's what God is doing to us, was doing at that moment on the cross. And that's the ultimate example we have before us. As we think about, okay, let's not get revenge, but let's take another step further. Let's be Christlike. Let's fully forgive as we have been forgiven.
Brian: Now that you've heard about forgiveness, it might make you feel guilty, but if you listen closely, you'll forgive us. With God's help, we can forgive. And as Nathan pointed out, the first step may be to ask God to help us want to forgive. We have been fully forgiven, and we can offer forgiveness. I trust that today's discussion of God's Word has been helpful and served as an encouragement to not just be hearers of the Word, but doers together. Let's bring God's word to life, to our lives. This week, the crosstalk Podcast is a production of crosstalk Global, equipping biblical communicators so every culture hears God's voice. To find out more about this educational nonprofit organization, please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org. crosstalk has trainings this quarter in Cuba, Kenya and Kansas. Help us train the next generation of biblical communicators. All you have to do is click donate in the show notes and make a donation of any size. You can also support this show by rating it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're enjoying it. Be sure to listen next Friday as we continue to learn from God's wisdom in the Book of Proverbs. You won't want to miss it.
Nathan: That sounds good.
Vicki: We're going to make a lot of people feel guilty.
Kevin: Well, if they pay any attention, hopefully, they should forgive us for that.
Vicki: Yeah, there you go. There you go, Kevin.
Nathan: My word.
Kevin: If we did any good, they'll forgive us.
Vicki: Oh, that's great.
Nathan: All right, let's open up in prayer, and we will. So, Kevin, standard operating procedure is we'll pray and then. And I'll read what ultimately becomes Brian's introduction. Because this is his show, and. My church, my own church, calls it Brian's Show. I was listening to Brian's show. You said this on Brian's show.
Vicki: Is that rye?
Nathan: Oh, yeah.
Kent: Oh.
Nathan: Oh, yeah. Because he does the introduction and the conclusion.
Vicki: Yeah.
Nathan: So he's the first thing and last thing, unless I put in little outtakes.
Kevin: Although your wife did it recently, right?
Nathan: Last week, yeah. She'll do it if. Well, because he was in Salina, so he was unable to.
Kevin: Yeah, I saw him last week.
Nathan: So, yeah, she's pretty amazing, though, because I. If I'm reading off a script, I stumble and fumble, as these guys know, and I do a fiction podcast, and so, man, that editing is crazy. Whenever she does one of the episodes for that or this, she, like, comes up, she reads it, and then she's like, oh, done. You know? And I'm like, my goodness. Kind of like Vicky. Vicki's just like, boom. You know, very little editing when Vicky's involved, Kent.