What can ruin our relationship with Jesus?
Text: Galatians 4:12-5:12
Hosts:
J. Kent Edwards
Vicki Hitzges
Nathan Norman
Narrator: Brian French
The CrossTalk Podcast is a production of CrossTalk Global, equipping biblical communicators, so every culture hears God’s voice. To find out more, or to support the work of this ministry please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org
Produced by Nathan James Norman/Untold Podcast Production
© 2025 CrossTalk Global
Brian: When God said in Genesis 2, it is not good for the man to be alone, I will make a helper suitable for him, he wasn't joking. Relationships are a core human need. Relationships offer a sense of belonging and acceptance along with emotional support, encouragement and understanding. Companionship not only fights loneliness and isolation, which can lead to mental and physical health issues, but also promotes personal growth. So we are not surprised to read that in a recent study of U.S. prisons, jails and immigration detention centers, it was determined that physical and social isolation, coupled with sensory deprivation and forced idleness, create a toxic combination. Solitary confinement can lead to severe and lasting psychological damage. People placed in solitary confinement can develop serious, long lasting health problems, which increases their risk for further health complications and even premature death. In New York State between 2015 and 2019, the rate of suicide was more than five times higher for people in solitary confinement than in the general prison population. There is no denying that people need other people. And that is why the Apostle Paul warned the Galatian churches in the latter part of chapter four and in the first half of chapter five about the devastating social consequences of their decision to not to trust in Christ's work on the cross or instead try to save themselves by making themselves righteous through observing the Old Testament law. Join Kent Edwards, Nathan Norman and Vicki Hitzges as they explore the relational consequences of denying the doctrine of justification by faith. Welcome to crosstalk, a Christian podcast whose goal is for us to encourage each other to not only increase our knowledge of the Bible, but but to take the next step beyond information into transformation. Our goal is to bring the Bible to life, into all our lives. I'm Brian French. Today, Dr. Kent Edwards, Vicki Hitzges and Nathan Norman continue their discussion through the book of Galatians. If you have a Bible handy, turn to Galatians, chapter 4, verse 12 to chapter 5, verse 12 as we join their discussion.
Kent: Vicki Nathan, have you known people who suffered because of the lack of social interaction just because of loneliness?
Vicki: I think that's common today. I think a lot of people suffer from isolation and loneliness and I think the older a person gets, the harder it is to not be lonely.
Kent: Why is that?
Vicki: Well, because you're not in school so you don't have 40 people with you every single day to choose friends from. People tend to go to church as much anymore and so you're not in a Sunday school class where you meet people and it's harder if you're not outside walking a dog, it's harder to meet people. It's harder as you get older to have friends.
Kent: Oh, it is. I've noticed that when our children were young, we took them to all kinds of sports things and activities at school. And that was a natural opportunity to get to know neighbors and other people and form friendships. And you'd have them over for barbecue cues and do stuff together. But when the kids got older and they weren't in sports, then we didn't really have that opportunity to be in those environments. Yeah. I mean, our social interaction began to decline. Unless you're really intentional. Yeah. You can really find yourself in times of immense loneliness.
Nathan: There have been studies about how many words a day people need to say to be emotionally healthy.
Vicki: Oh, really?
Nathan: And I believe women's are a little bit significantly higher than men's typically. Now, in my marriage, that's not true. I'm the talker. I know, it's a big shocker.
Kent: Yeah, I'm amazed to hear that.
Nathan: But it varies from person to person. But to be psychologically healthy, you need to say a certain amount of words a day to another person. And you know where I really appreciated that information? Because what I would find as a young pastor, and let's just say I still am a young pastor, as I would find that some of these older single people who were in the church, maybe they'd never been married, maybe they were widowed. Whenever I would start talking with them, they would just dump information. Like, you couldn't get a word in edgewise. And I couldn't figure out what this was. I thought it was a personality thing, but then I was seeing it was the same type of person, a man or woman, living by themselves, cut off, isolated, very little social interaction throughout the week. They're retired, so they're not interacting. Maybe they don't have kids, or maybe their kids just really don't call them that much. And what I would find is that these people would just, like, dump on me. And if it was right before church on Sunday, I couldn't interact with them. There was one woman I remember, God bless her. I would have to be physically moving when I'd say good morning to her. Otherwise I'd get trapped in the conversation two minutes before service started.
Vicki: Because, bless her heart, they needed somebody to talk to.
Nathan: She needed someone to talk to. And so I learned, okay, if I see this person just sit down or just, you know, just hunker down and just listen like they're. I didn't need to say anything. They would just go from topic to topic to topic to topic. And all of those words that they didn't say. Were stored up. Psychologists say they, they're stored up. It's. It's now in their account and they need to get it out at some point. So. Yeah, so, absolutely, I've seen that. And, and people will just explode with conversation in those situations.
Kent: Well, that's interesting. One of the things I have seen during my years pastoring is when I go into a senior center, an old folks home, to visit someone who is connected with my congregation. It can take hours, not only because of the conversation with the person that I'm familiar with, but every single person in that facility wants to talk.
Vicki: Oh, if you've been to a place like that, they literally reach out.
Kent: They do.
Vicki: To grab you. Yeah.
Nathan: Because people are.
Kent: I need to say something.
Vicki: Yes.
Kent: Yeah. They're so starved for interaction. We need other people in order to remain healthy. And the Apostle Paul deals with the potential of social isolation that the Galatian church members were facing in the latter part of chapter four and the first part of chapter five. In this book you'll remember, the book of Galatians describes how the Apostle Paul was trying to rescue these local churches from their disastrous mistake of abandoning the doctrine of justification by faith. In the first two chapters, he explains why he has the personal credibility to challenge their theological error in chapter three. In the opening part of chapter four, Paul offers some compelling biblical reasons for returning to orthodoxy before the personal costs the Galatians would have to pay if they abandoned that doctrine. In today's podcast, however, we're going to see how Paul will outline the severe relational costs of embracing the legalistic teachings of the Judaizers.
Vicki: He says in chapter four, verse 12, he says, I plead with you, brothers and sisters. As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the Gospel to you. And even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Jesus Christ himself. Where then is your blessing of me now? I can testify that if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me. Wow. Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?
Kent: Now that's powerful emotional language, isn't it?
Nathan: Sure is.
Brian: Sure is.
Vicki: He goes on and he says, those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you from us so that you may have zeal for them. My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth, until Christ is formed in you. How I Wish I could be with you now and change my tone because I am perplexed about you.
Kent: Paul here is expressing in heartfelt language the damage that these heretic Judaizers are doing to their relationship with Paul. Their teaching is separating them from the apostle that they once loved and who.
Vicki: Still loves deeply, obviously.
Kent: Yeah, yeah.
Nathan: I'm not popping my eyes out for just anybody.
Kent: Yeah.
Vicki: That's strong language.
Kent: It is, yeah. Paul here, when he speaks of being perplexed, he says, I'm in a state of great anxiety, mental anguish. Why? Because their denial of the sufficiency of Jesus work on the cross is a relational deal breaker. If they don't return to orthodoxy on this critical point, it will sever their relationship with Paul. Why, Nathan? Why is this such a deal breaker?
Nathan: Well, this is exactly what cults and anti Christian groups will do. They actually. Hold on, let me back up.
Kent: I'm sorry.
Nathan: Because if their relationship is based on their personal relationship with Christ and the churches in Galatia are walking away from Christ, what relation do we have anymore? It's kind of like if somebody came up to me and said, nathan, I really like you, I love you, you're awesome, but I can't stand your wife. What kind of relationship am I going to have with that person? It's not going to happen. And so the same if people are rejecting Paul or they're rejecting Jesus, how are we going to have a relationship here? If you are rejecting Christ, if you're rejecting this sound relationship you have with him, there's no relationship going forward. You can't love me if you don't love Jesus, and you can't love me if you don't love my wife.
Kent: Right, right. Yeah. Because the whole basis of our faith and our primary relationship with Christ is based on his salvific work on the cross. Amen. It's because of that that everything else flows. If you deny that, then it breaks the relationship. And frankly, that's what cults do. Every cult, not just Judaizers cult, but every cult, they sever your relationships with your family, friends and church. And they do it by having you change your belief system so that if you follow the cult leader, you're better than everyone else. They're not in your level of spirituality, you're above them.
Vicki: You had a sister that joined a cult. Did that affect your relationship with her?
Kent: Oh, yeah. I mean, my sister was in her mid teens when she was taken by that cult. So for years, and she was living with them overseas and obviously I couldn't talk with her I couldn't spend Christmas with her. I couldn't spend time with her when she was there. And she entered that organization, they changed her name. She was no longer my sister. And I couldn't call her by her name. I had to call her by a new name. They made her dress differently so she would lose her identity. They. She actually went through a wedding ceremony where she was married to Jesus, which I never quite understood, but she was in a different kind of high level relationship than the rest of us. And she left all her past relationships behind. She really had no choice. She couldn't communicate really to anybody. Sometime years later, this organization put her in one of their outposts in the far east of Canada where we were living at the time. And my parents were excited, so they moved across the country to be near her. And as soon as they moved there, they sold their house, moved out there to be close to her, and they moved my sister. The organization took her from there and took her again, back across the world again because they. Because they feared the relationship with family would draw her back, would draw her back. They wanted her to stay inside. That's what cults do. And I think that's what Paul is alluding to in verse 17, isn't he?
Vicki: He says, what they want is to alienate you from us so that you may have zeal for them.
Kent: Yeah, cults are afraid of the power of friends and family. Now, let's face it, Judaizers were a cult. They had twisted scripture to say what scripture did not say. But we move on because Paul continues to warn the Galatian Christians about a second relational cost of abandoning the gospel. In chapter 4, verses 21 31, he says, no, if you go down this road, you not only lose your relationship with me, but you'll lose your relationship with God himself. Now, Nathan, I've got to tell you, I was a little intimidated to come to this next section because even John Stott, a respected commentator and preacher, said that many regard this passage as the most difficult passage in the Epistle. Why does he say that?
Nathan: I preached on this recently. It is very difficult because Paul is using parts of Genesis in a man. Like he's using it as a metaphor as an object lesson. But if you go back to the original text, it's not saying exactly what Paul is saying. So if you go back to the text, you have to understand what the text is saying and then kind of understand where Paul's coming at this, using it as a springboard to highlight what he's talking about. So to understand the passage. We have to remember that for the scholarly Jew and rabbis, a passage of Scripture has four meanings. One, it's literal or straightforward. Two, it's a suggested meaning or an inference. Three, is the meaning deduced by investigation. And four, the allegorical meaning. This was considered the height, the summit, the best of all meanings.
Kent: Wow. Allegory.
Nathan: Right. So Paul, he's trained rabbi. He's discussing the story of Abraham, Sarah, Hagar, Ishmael, and Isaac in the Old Testament, which is a straightforward narrative, but then he allegorizes it to make a point.
Kent: Huh. So this is what we would call an ad hominem argument. So, yeah, so Paul uses this method of interpretation not because he believes it's the right thing to do, but because the Judaizers employ this strategy.
Nathan: Yeah. So he's attacking the Judaizers by using their own method against them.
Kent: Yeah, he's saying, yeah, your argument doesn't make any sense. Even if I adopt it, it makes no sense, and I don't adopt it. But it makes no sense. So what does this look like in this passage? Well, if you're familiar with the book of Genesis, you'll know that Abraham and Sarah were very old, and Sarah had no children. So she sent her slave girl Hagar to Abraham to see if she could have a child through her. And Hagar did have the son and named him Ishmael. In the meantime, God had promised Sarah that she would have a child, a promise difficult to believe because of her advanced age, but true to his word, she did become pregnant, and Isaac was born to Abraham and Sarah. So in verses 22, 23, in making.
Nathan: The argument, Paul says, Starting in verse 21, he says, tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. Now, this may be interpreted allegorically.
Kent: He's going right to allegory because that's what the Jewish cult leaders were using. And so there we read, Ishmael was born of ordinary human impulses of the flesh, and Isaac was born in faith to God's promise. Right?
Nathan: Right.
Kent: So then he says, okay, so Sarah was a free woman, but Hagar was a slave girl. Sarah was a free woman while Hagar was a slave girl. So Hagar is the heir to legalism, and Sarah and her offspring represents the new covenant in Jesus Christ, God's way of dealing with men, people not by law, but by grace. And in verse 28, he continues, it.
Vicki: Says, now you, brothers and sisters like Isaac, are children of promise. What does the scripture say? Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance of the free woman's son. Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
Kent: Yeah. So what Paul is saying is he's driving them to make a decision. Are you an offspring of Abraham who live by faith and God answered that and kept his promise? Or are you a follower of Hagar, the slave woman who did not live by faith? Pick one. So he's saying, are you a child of Abraham? And if you are, and of course, they wouldn't want to say they were not, right? Right. If you are, then get rid of the law. I mean, get rid of it in terms of earning your salvation. And if you don't, if you're trying to earn your forgiveness by trying to live perfectly according to the Old Testament law, then you're a child of Ishmael, Hagar's offspring. Those are the Arab nations, the enemies of God, the father of today's Muslim faith. Now, if you choose that you are outside of the blessing that God promised to Abraham, fulfilled in Christ, you are not in relationship with, with the God of Abraham. So he takes their own argument, uses it against their own teaching to say, if you say that we have to add to the law, then you are not living by faith as Abraham did. You are not an ancestor of Abraham. You don't have the benefits of the covenant that God made with Abraham. You have lost your relationship with God, not only with Paul, but now they've lost their relationship with God. And then Paul goes on to conclude this natural unit by stating that they, well, it gets worse. They'll lose their relationship with Jesus Christ himself.
Vicki: He says, mark my words. I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, I'm surprised. A lot of men wanted to be circumcised. That takes some faith right there. But anyway, he goes, mark my words. I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again, I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ. You have fallen away from grace.
Kent: Wow, that's powerful language.
Nathan: Pretty Strong.
Kent: The word there, alienated means to be released. It's like you have released bad fruit into the trash can. I want nothing to do with you. When he says you've fallen away from grace, that's used to talk about a star falling to earth from the heavens or a ship blown off course by a storm. You have fallen away from grace. You have been alienated from Christ. Why? Why does our rejection of justification by faith alone, not by works? Why does that alienate us from Christ?
Vicki: Well, it's an insult to Christ because He came and he died for your sins and he paid the entire price. It is finished.
Kent: Yeah. No, I think you're right, Vicki. There's no greater insult you can hurl at Christ than to say it's offensive.
Nathan: It's absolutely offensive. Right, so one of the metaphors I'll use is, you know, I'm not too keen on tattoos. Not a theological, you know, statement. It's just I'm not huge on them. My wife knows that. So, you know, I go away for two weeks, and then when I come back, if she says, how can I prove to my husband and that I love him? You know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna get a tattoo that says I love Nathan. And I'm gonna get it right on my face right now. When I come back and I see her, am I responding positively or negatively? Very negatively. I don't like tattoos in the first place. And it's on your face, your beautiful face. And now people are gonna think, like, I made you do this thing. I mean, it's just. It's absolutely offensive. It is going to hurt our relationship because she has decided to try and love me and prove her love for me in a way that I find personally offensive. Now, take that with Christ. It's not just a personal offense. Something detestable. Something absolutely detestable. I've given my life for you so that we can have a positive relationship, and you say, no, you know what? Sacrifice isn't good enough. Your death, your humiliation on the cross is not good enough. I'm going to go do something better. It's offensive.
Vicki: Yeah. And it's saying, I will do what you failed to do, Right?
Kent: So I'm better than you. I can do what you couldn't do. That breaks the relationship with Christ, because that is so wrong, as you've said, so insulting. When the churches in Galatia chose to follow the false teachings of those Judaizers, they were giving up their relationship with the Apostle Paul, God the Father and Jesus Christ. Himself. This is the danger of following compelling Bible teachers who twist the Bible in their effort to promise that if you do what they say, you'll have a super spirituality greater than that of ordinary Christians. If we attempt to earn or improve the salvation Christ has purchased on the cross, we will lose our relationship with other Christians, with God, and abandon the love of Christ. A full or even partial denial of the doctrine of justification by faith. It's a deal breaker in our relationship with God and his people. We will be alone if we do. And it's not good to be alone. Ask those even today who are in solitary confinement. Nathan Paul's teachings on justification by faith in Galatians as well as the Book of Romans are what led to the creation of the Protestant church. Weren't they?
Nathan: They sure were. Martin Luther faced a trial at the Diet of Worms. Spelt worms, spelled the same, pronounced differently, same great flavor. It's not my joke. So at the Diet of worms in 1521, it confirmed his conviction. Scripture alone is the sole infallible source of truth about God, faith and life. Salvation is received solely through God's grace and faith. God's people can directly approach God through Jesus Christ. No saint or clergy has a better way to access him. And indulgences, which is the practice of buying forgiveness for sins, they were a serious misuse of the common people's sincere faith.
Kent: Well, we would agree with that, wouldn't we?
Vicki: Absolutely.
Kent: And I think the Apostle Paul would be standing up if he were there and say amen and Amen. This is one of the most pivotal events of the church. And at the conclusion of this trial, after Martin Luther had made those points, he made a significant speech. Vicki, would you read the famous conclusion of his speech?
Vicki: Absolutely. Since your lordships require of me a simple, clear and direct answer, I will give you one. And it is unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures and by clear reason, I am bound by the scriptures I have quoted. My conscience is captive to the word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience. Here I stand. I cannot do otherwise. God help me. Amen.
Kent: May we echo that conclusion in our lives and preserve our relationship with other Christians, with God himself and the person of Jesus Christ.
Brian: Sometimes people strive to earn God's favor. How can we explain to them that it is foolish to earn the favor of God? We can point out that if we try to score points with God, we will lose our relationship with other Christians. We'll lose our relationship with God himself. Plus, we will abandon the complete sacrifice Christ made for us on the cross. I trust that today's discussion of God's Word has been helpful and served as an encouragement to not just be hearers of the Word, but doers together. Let's bring God's Word to life, to our lives. This week. The crosstalk Podcast is a production of crosstalk Global equipping biblical communicators so every culture hears God's voice. To find out more about this educational nonprofit organization, please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org. we're getting ready for crosstalk events in Salina, Kansas and Moldova this month help us train the next generation of biblical communicators. All you have to do is click Donate in the show notes and make a donation of any size. You can also support this show by rating it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you find it. Be sure to listen next Friday as we hear an exciting update about the work crosstalk is doing in Kenya. You won't want to miss it.