How can a church avoid anarchy?
Text: Galatians 2:1-10
Hosts:
J. Kent Edwards
Vicki Hitzges
Nathan Norman
Narrator: Brian French
The CrossTalk Podcast is a production of CrossTalk Global, equipping biblical communicators, so every culture hears God’s voice. To find out more, or to support the work of this ministry please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org
Produced by Nathan James Norman/Untold Podcast Production
© 2025 CrossTalk Global
Brian: Merriam Webster defines anarchy as a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority. The only thing worse than bad government is no government. If you don't believe that, consider the plight of Haiti. Haiti has been without a stable government since President Jovenel Moisey's assassination in 2021. Because his successor was not elected, his authority is not recognized, either nationally or internationally. The consequences have been severe. According to World Vision, Haiti is facing a prolonged crisis worsened by gang violence caused by the absence of a functioning government. About 80% of Port au Prince, the capital city, is controlled by gangs, including the closed international airport. Looting at the main port has drained essential supplies, worsening the food insecurity crisis. Thousands risk dangerous crossings into the Dominican Republic, urgently needing shelter, food, water and medical care. Children live in constant fear, showing physical signs of trauma such as heart palpitations and persistent sadness. Some have said they feel so hopeless they no longer want to go on living. Anarchy not only destroys nations, but also cripples churches. It occurred in the first century, and it can happen again. Join Vicki Hitzges, Kent Edwards and Nathan Norman as they explore one of the Apostle Paul's strategies for rescuing the renegade churches of Galatia in Galatians, chapter 2, verse verses 1 to 10. Welcome to Crosstalk, a Christian podcast whose goal is for us to encourage each other to not only increase our knowledge of the Bible, but to take the next step beyond information into transformation. Our goal is to bring the Bible to life, into all our lives. I'm Brian French. Today, Dr. Kent Edwards, Vicki Hitzges and Nathan Norman continue their discussion through the Book of Galatians. If you have a Bible handy, turn to Galatians, chapter 2, verses 1 to 10, as we join their discussion.
Kent: Over the past few weeks, we've seen how heretical teachers led the Galatian churches astray by teaching a doctrine that denies the heart of Christianity justification by faith. Just as vegetable soup without water isn't soup, it's just a salad. So a church that doesn't prioritize the gospel isn't a church. It's just a charity. How can we help congregations that have deviated from their doctrinal foundation? Last week, Paul emphasized that only God's word can be trusted. The Bible alone should serve as the basis of our faith and practice. However, this week Paul will aim to assist the Galatian Christians by emphasizing the importance of submitting to spiritual leadership. Nathan Vicki Submission is not a popular word today, is it? No.
Vicki: If you're going to ask me what do you want to do today. Submit wouldn't be the word.
Kent: Yeah. Because submitting means you don't necessarily agree. Right.
Vicki: Or I don't get my way necessarily.
Nathan: Control.
Kent: Yeah.
Vicki: Yeah, that's exactly right.
Nathan: Yeah. I would even say, you know, it's not only not popular, it is considered a negative word. Right. So if you have a UFC fighter, if you're not getting knocked out, what do you have to do to get out of the fight? You submit. Right. Which means you lose.
Vicki: That's what that means.
Nathan: They use the term submit. Right. He submitted. Right. So he's tapped. In Boxing, it's like, you know, in wrestling, it's like he's tapping out. But. But in the ufc, it' he submits.
Vicki: Wow.
Nathan: And so it's a negative. Right. It means you lost the bout, you forfeit your right to choose, and you give it up.
Vicki: Yeah.
Nathan: And that is kind of part of the nature of submission, is you're giving something up.
Kent: But the Bible is frequently countercultural, and it is when it comes to submission.
Nathan: Oh, sure, we've talked about this before. Submission in the home, which often gets misconstrued into things that didn't mean. But in Ephesians 5. 21, it says, Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. And husbands, love your wives. Just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, so there's a mutual submission, a giving up of your rights, of letting someone else have their way. And again, this text can be taken out of context where men are like this domineering thing and women have no say. But that's proven wrong by verse 21, where Paul says, submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Kent: And if, as husbands, we love our wives, as Christ loved the church. Yeah. As Paul goes on to say, he submitted to death for that.
Nathan: Get the crosses out, people. Get the crosses out. Right. And it's not popular. And people try and misconstrue this. And men will try to say, well, it's the women's job to submit. And women will say, well, it doesn't really mean submit because it's hard. It is really hard. It is hard to submit to another person. It is hard to mutually submit to each other.
Kent: And the Bible goes on, doesn't it?
Vicki: Yes, there's submission to governments.
Kent: Boo. That would be tough.
Vicki: Yeah, no kidding. No kidding. But that's what it says in Romans 13. It says, Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has Established, which seems impossible sometimes. The authorities that exist have been established by God. And in verse two, it says, consequently, whoever rebels against the authority. This is a big time verse, everybody. It is, consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted. And those who do so will bring judgment upon themselves.
Kent: Wow, that's tough.
Vicki: Yeah, that's pretty amazing. You hearken back to January 6th and I don't care which side you're on, but that's the picture that plays in my head. And I think, you know, whoever side you're on, submit. It says right here, God puts people in leadership positions, sometimes to punish and sometimes because these are God's people to lead.
Nathan: Yeah, it's rough, isn't it?
Kent: Well, at least in America today, we're finding people a lot easier, finding it a lot easier to rebel and to undermine than it is to submit.
Nathan: So many, so many of our stories are about that, right? Star wars, which is, you know, one of the most popular stories and movies of all time. It's based on rebelling against the evil Empire. And even when they did the sequels, the follow ups, they had to do a hard. The empire's defeated, right? And they had to do a hard reset and say, okay, they're back. Because no one wanted to tell the story about, hey, we're the government that's rightfully in charge now. No, no, we have to rebel.
Kent: Well, submission in the home, submission to governments. The Bible also says we are to submit to our church leadership. The writer of book of Hebrews says in chapter 13, have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Is submission to spiritual authority just a first century issue? Are they the only ones who have struggled with submitting to authority?
Nathan: No.
Kent: Oh no.
Vicki: If you've ever seen a church split, you know, that's as current as today's headlines. No.
Nathan: Yeah, I would say we probably struggle with it even more.
Kent: Yeah. Why?
Nathan: Right, Because. Well, because the Greco Roman culture, there was a cultural ladder, a socioeconomic ladder of classes. And so you learned to submit to the class that was above you. So submission was a part of their life. In America, we don't have an official class system anyways and part of our ethos is hyper individuality. And so the idea of submission is like, are you kidding me? No. I'm my own boss. I'm in charge of my own destiny.
Kent: So refusal to submit to authority is an ongoing issue. It was present in the New Testament, present in the Old Testament, and also present Today, what I find interesting about Galatians 2:1:10 is that it echoes what is found in Acts 15. In fact, listeners may find it interesting just to later on read Acts 15 and hear Luke's account of exactly the same episode that Paul is talking about in these verses. The difference is in Galatians, he is giving a personal account how he responded to the issue of spiritual authority with the churches of Galatia. The problem he mentions in Galatians 2:4 is kind of a summary of the first part of Acts 15.
Vicki: Here's what he says. He said a matter arose because some false believers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves.
Kent: Nathan, do you want to give us some context there? What exactly is he referring to? Obliquely?
Nathan: He's talking about the Judaizers who were coming into the church and they wanted to have people follow the Old Testament cleanliness rules and dietary rules and circumcision, which only applied to half the group. So now you're creating a class system within Christianity.
Kent: So this was a serious issue. The Gospel was at stake, right?
Nathan: Absolutely right. Is it salvation by faith, or is it by faith and following the Old Testament law?
Kent: Right, Faith and law. So that's what it is. And obviously they couldn't agree. I mean, you look at Acts 15, you'll see a serious dispute came up because Paul was not going to compromise and these false teachers were not going to compromise. So what do you do? And we read what he did in verse one.
Vicki: And following, he says, I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas and Titus. In response to a revelation and meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, Peter, James, and John, I presented to them the Gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure and had not been running my race in vain.
Kent: Hmm. Can you unpack that for us, Nathan? What does he mean when he says, I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain?
Nathan: There is some humility here because he is sure and certain of the Gospel. And he's so sure and certain. And then an issue arises. So he says, well, people are fighting me so hard. Let me go talk to trusted leaders Peter, James, and John, and let me see if I'm right. I think I'm right. I feel like I'm right. My conscience is clear. But maybe I'm not. Maybe I am wrong. Let me go get some outside feedback so that I can make sure that the Gospel I'm preaching truly is The Gospel.
Kent: Peter wanted the endorsement of those leaders, and he was submitting himself to them, right?
Nathan: Yep.
Kent: If they said he was wrong, he would be facing a crisis. But he went to find out, am I wrong or am I right? I will listen and respect your opinion in Acts 15. When you get a chance to read it, you'll see that Paul presented his argument to these leaders, the Jerusalem Council, in great detail. The Phariseeical teachers also presented their argument to that same group of people in some great detail. And then this committee in Jerusalem went aside, went away to consider and discuss and come to a solution. We read about their answer at Galatians 2:7.
Vicki: It says, the Jerusalem Council recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the Gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised. James, Peter and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship. When they recognized the grace given to me, they agreed that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
Kent: Wow. Paul asked for and received the endorsement of the leaders of the church to continue his ministry. I bet he was excited about that. Don't you think he was?
Nathan: Yeah, I think so. I think he was relieved. What's amazing here is I don't get the sense from him anywhere that he was like, yeah, he drops the mic and he's dunking on these guys. Yeah, I'm right, you're wrong. It's more of a God is good and let's continue the journey, Right?
Kent: Yes. And what he has revealed to me is confirmed.
Nathan: I have not wasted my time.
Kent: Yep. I'm not running in vain. I'm accomplishing God's task.
Nathan: I haven't led anyone astray.
Kent: In Acts 15, we see that as a demonstration of their ecclesial authority. The Jerusalem Council actually wrote a formal letter to the church in Antioch. They didn't only speak to Paul, they spoke to the Church. In that letter, they announced their decision and stated that the false teachers who carried out their ministry had done so without the Jerusalem Council's authorization. That's pretty formal, isn't it? Which means it is wrong to do ministry without authorization. I think we need to. All people in ministry need to be accountable to others. What are the dangers of choosing not to put ourselves under the authority of senior spiritual people? I mean, why is this such an important principle?
Nathan: Well, on the one hand, I mean, you have doctrinal issues. I can't tell you how many times I've run into people who left a church and started their own thing or doing their own whatever, and the absolute stupid beliefs. And I'm using a harsh word there, but the absolutely stupid beliefs. I remember years ago, I went to this. It was a Christian coffee shop. I don't know how the coffee shop got saved, but there it is. And I went to this Christian coffee shop, talking to the owner, and he was just like, yeah, you know, we got to get away from this model of church that we do and all, you know, the preaching. And we got to go back to how they used to do it in the Bible. And they'd sit around in a circle and just share their thoughts and everything. And, you know, this idea of preaching that didn't exist in the Bible. And, you know, I'm over here going, no, right? And so I had my Bible with me. I opened up and I just went, old New Testament. Like, there's preaching everywhere.
Vicki: Everywhere.
Nathan: Everywhere Old. The New Testament never ends. Hard to find a book where you're not finding preaching. And he just looked at me like, I've just wasted two years of my angry life. Right. But he had taken himself out of the authority of the church and probably for issues and maybe legitimate issues that were going on within that church. But now he's not under an authority. He might have read a book, he might have heard a talk somebody gave, and he is just running this race in vain, preaching this message of, we got to sit around in circles and talk to each other. No more sermons. Right? Down with sermons are bad. That's not biblical. Well, it's nothing but biblical. What was the Sermon on the Mount? I mean, I threw that out there. And he just looked at me like, oh, my gosh. You could just see the terror in his eyes. Like, I obviously didn't think this through. There can be plenty of other doctrinal issues that people run into. And if they've taken themselves out of authority, there's no one like Paul to check or to confirm, hey, what you're doing is right and what you're doing is good. Or, you're going way too far with this. You need to come back on track to your point.
Kent: We can be blind. You and I have preferences when it comes to doctrines or teachings of the Bible. There's certain things that we are all just drawn to because of our personality, our backgrounds, whatever. I think I could preach the same five topics for the rest of my life. I mean, you know, because it really resonates with who I am. Somebody needs to be able to Say Kent. Don't make them into the image of Kent. Have your people turn into the image of Christ. I think you need to preach through books of the Bible, not your own hobby horses. I think you need to be more balanced. I need someone, if I don't see that, to come alongside and help me with that. For doctrinal reasons, I think that's really helpful. For moral reasons, I mean, that's huge. I mean, when it comes to church discipline, we need people who are over us. In a court of law, the same person cannot be the judge and the accused. Right? I mean, why is that not allowed to happen?
Nathan: I don't even know how to answer. It seems so obvious. So obvious because you're never going to judge yourself.
Kent: Condemned, there's never. So sin, I can't think of that I'm not capable of personally justifying in some way. Everyone's got an excuse for whatever sin that they committed. They've got something to cover it up. So we need someone outside of the system, someone who is not ourselves, who can look at us and our situation up with objectivity and say, kent, Nathan, of course, they never say to Vicki, but to others, you're wrong and you need to. Here is the path to restoration, which may not be full restoration, but here's the path that you must take. Walking out of sin.
Nathan: I mean, I, you know, and it is really helpful. You know, I'm fairly new at the church that I'm currently at, and about a year ago, I had an issue, you know, personal family issue that was going on, and I took a few of the elders aside and I explained what was going on. I said, here's what's going on. Here's how I'm seeing this. I don't think this is anything that, you know, is problematic for the church or, you know, that we need to bring the whole elder board on. But I'm bringing this to you two guys because I want your opinion. And if you think otherwise, like, please, by all means, let me know. And they were looking at me like, well, you didn't mean to tell us, but I just wanted to make sure I was being above board. And it was helpful because not only that, but they confirmed. They're like, no, you're doing the right thing here, and let's pray for you and let's give you some help so that you can walk with us in grace, which was really helpful. So in that case, the submission became a blessing. Because I'm not just saying, yeah, I'm definitely doing the right thing. Where there's this question in the back of my mind now. I had some godly people confirming, no, of course you're doing the right thing. You have to do this and let us encourage you on forward.
Kent: Yeah, yeah. I just think that's absolutely critical. If people said to me, well, who's holding you accountable, Kent? If you're head of this crosstalk global organization, you can pretty well do what you want. And I said my response would be, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, I can't. For one thing, I got a board of directors. And that board of directors. If I stepped out, man, I'd be done. I know them well enough that they would hold my feet to the fire. And I know that, and that's helpful. So I don't want to have that to be necessary. I want that to keep me from sin. Secondly, I'm, you know, professor emeritus from Biola University. If I stepped out in some big way, I could lose their endorsement in ministry. I don't want to do that. And if I stepped out and did something terrible, my own denomination would take away my credentials. I can get fired by all kinds of people. I mean, and that's not wrong. I think that's healthy. I think that we need to be submissive to authority. Everyone, even Paul, put himself under the authority of other apostles to make sure that he wasn't doing anything that was inappropriate. So leadership, the importance of leadership goes two ways. Not only do we need to submit to leaders, but leaders need to give guidance to the people. I mean, in the Jerusalem Council, the hard question came to Peter, James, and John and the others, and they answered, and they gave a definitive answer, came to a conclusion, and gave direction. I think we have leaders in many cases that when they're faced with a hard question, at least from the surface, it looks like there's more politics than doctrine. There's more questioning of people than there is perhaps of looking for the guidance of the Holy Spirit through his insights into Scripture. If people have questions and they are significant, they need clear answers.
Nathan: Yeah. There's a good concept I came across years ago called there's a difference between being a peacemaker and a peacekeeper. A peacekeeper just tries. It's Thanksgiving meal, right? You just try and smooth over the conversation to get through it. You know, Uncle Bobby starts talking about his conspiracy theories. So you don't want to start a fight. You just smooth it over to get through Thanksgiving meal, and things are fine. The difference is a peacemaker actually says, no. Bobby, that's really hurtful. What you're saying, and you can't talk about people or things like that, and there's kids around and they're impressionable. Please don't say that kind of thing. That is a lot harder to do. But I think a lot of leaders will, especially within the church, will give a non answer in order to just smooth things over. I've seen that happen in a lot of churches with LGBTQ plus questions where, yeah, absolutely. I want to affirm the inherent dignity of every single person. Every single person's made in the image of God. But we've got to have a frank conversation about sexual ethics. And as they're seen in Scripture, we have to give it a definitive answer. Yes, God does care about sexual ethics, and he created sex to be a beautiful thing to be enjoyed between a man and woman and a marriage. And outside of that, it is not. It is not holy. It's sinful. In fact.
Kent: Be clear. Be biblical. Be clear.
Nathan: You have to.
Kent: If you can't give firm direction, get out of the leadership position.
Nathan: Right. I know a number of years ago, there was a big question about what the purpose of a worship service was. And. Oh, yeah, and this was influenced in one of the churches I served in, and there was a big conflict on staff. It was a large church, but it was on staff. About whether the purpose of the worship service was to evangelize the community, to draw people in, or for Christians to come together and glorify God. And on the surface of things, it's like, can it do both? But it really did affect how we did things, the way we did things, what we said and what wasn't said. Big division.
Kent: Big division.
Nathan: And I will say I was not in senior leadership. Senior leadership would not give us a definitive answer. And so everyone else had this conflict that they were constantly in.
Kent: Right. So the consequence of not giving a clear answer is what? Conflict, conflict, confusion, broken relationships. As people continue to argue both sides, just like we were seeing in Galatia between the Pharisaic teachers, the Apostle Paul, they needed someone to come in as a referee to say, this is our definitive answer to this question. Then we have direction. But perhaps the most crucial question we can ask today is why did Paul retell his experience of spiritual submission to the church leaders in Jerusalem? Why did he pass on this episode from his own life to the churches of Galatia?
Vicki: Well, I don't know if he knew it or not, but he was setting an example. He certainly was for the Galatian churches. But, I mean, we're still talking about him today.
Kent: Yep.
Nathan: Well, and how can we expect other people to submit to spiritual authorities if we were ourselves are not willing to submit? Right. That's often times in toxic churches where you have this high leadership telling people, oh, you got to submit, you've got to submit. Well, who are you submitting to? And they might have somebody that they could name, but there's no actual submission there.
Kent: If we expect others to submit to authority, I think we have to lead by example. I think we have to learn how to submit to authorities. Paul, I think, was prepared to submit to the Jerusalem Council. I think he was prepared to submit. He didn't have to because of their findings, but I think he was willing to. He put himself on the line. And that's what he's telling these people. That's what he's telling. To the Galatians, he says, I was willing to submit on something that I thought was core if I was willing to do that. I'm asking you to be willing to do that. You have to be willing. I'm calling you to follow my example. Because people learn from the example we set, not just the words we speak. And in Galatians 2:1 10, Paul states that he needs spiritual authority over himself, just as the Galatians need spiritual authority over themselves. So, podcast listeners, it's not just for other people to submit. We have to demonstrate the submission that all people must demonstrate. Submitting is more difficult among churches in the West, I think, than it is in the east, but it certainly is a tough sell for many people in the west, especially in America. According to the scholar Geert Hofstede, the United States is one of the most individualistic countries in the world. I always stressed independence, self reliance, and individual achievement. That's why one of the most famous phrases in America is live free or die. And in the state of New Hampshire, it's on the license plates, for crying out loud.
Vicki: Prisoners have to make those license plates.
Kent: Now. Live free or die may be an American perspective, but it's not a biblical principle. God's people are all part of one family, one kingdom with everyone under the authority of the Triune God and those he has appointed as leaders of his church. The Book of Judges repeatedly states that the moral decline and chaos of that time resulted from everyone doing what was right. In his own eyes. Spiritual independence leads to anarchy. Anarchy leads to death. Individual freedom has to be constrained by submission to the legitimate leaders of Christ Church. This isn't easy, but it's important. May we all follow the example of the Apostle Paul, who, not only held the Bible high, but also demonstrated to the Galatians and us the humility of submission to the spiritual leadership God has given us. May we follow in the footsteps of Paul so others can follow in ours.
Brian: One of the ways we undo false teaching is by submitting to spiritual authorities in the church. When believers submit, it reveals blind spots or wrong beliefs and practices. I trust that today's discussion of God's Word has been helpful and served as an encouragement to not just be hearers of the Word, but doers Together. Let's bring God's Word to life to our lives. This week the crosstalk Podcast is a production of crosstalk Global, equipping biblical communicators so every culture hears God's voice. To find out more or to support the work of this Ministry, please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org. our next CrossTalk events are happening in Asia and Mombasa, Kenya. Help us train the next generation of biblical communicators. All you have to do is click Donate in the show notes and make a donation of any size. You can also support this show by sharing it on social media and telling your friends. Be sure to listen next Friday as we continue our discussion of the Epistle of Galatians. You won't want to miss it.
Kent: Sat.