Get a sneak peek into the biggest surprise in history!
Text: Matthew 25:31-46
Hosts:
J. Kent Edwards
Vicki Hitzges
Nathan Norman
Narrator: Kristin Norman
The CrossTalk Podcast is a production of CrossTalk Global, equipping biblical communicators, so every culture hears God’s voice. To find out more, or to support the work of this ministry please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org
Produced by Nathan James Norman/Untold Podcast Production
© 2025 CrossTalk Global
Kristin: At some point, everyone has been caught by surprise. Unexpected or astonishing events are part of life, and they can be both good and bad. If you receive a call from your daughter saying that she's been offered the job of her childhood dreams, that could be a wonderful surprise. But if that news is followed by the news that her employment requires a long term international assignment, things may have suddenly gone south. If your doctor informs you that you've lost 22lbs since your last checkup, you may be delighted. But if that comment is followed by I'd like to send you for a panel of blood tests to see if you have cancer, your joy could quickly sour. Authors Tanya Luna and Leanne Reninger outline four stages of experiencing surprise. Freeze, Find, Shift, and Share this is the initial moment of being stopped in your tracks by the unexpected. Find. You start trying to understand the situation by asking questions and looking for explanations. Shift. As you process the unexpected event, you may begin to reassess your perspective on the world based on the new information. Share the final stage involves the desire to share the surprise experience with others. A day is coming when you, I and everyone else will go through all four of these stages simultaneously. If you would like a sneak peek into the biggest surprise in history, listen in as Nathan Norman, Vicki Hitzges and Kent Edwards peer into our futures as they explore Matthew 25:31 46. Welcome to CrossTalk, a Christian podcast whose goal is for us to encourage each other to not only increase our knowledge of the Bible, but to take the next step beyond information into transformation. Our goal is to bring the Bible to life, into all our lives. I'm Kristin Norman. Today, Dr. Kent Edwards, Vicki Hitzges and Nathan Norman continue their discussion through the Gospel of Matthew. If you have a Bible handy, turn to Matthew 25:31 46 as we join their discussion.
Kent: Vicki Nathan, what have been some of the best and worst surprises you or people you have known have experienced?
Vicki: Oh, I can think of two off the top of my head. I don't know if they're for best. I can think of surprise parties that were a lot of fun. When I was a a kid. There were buildings that I would drive by that I thought were beautiful and I would, whenever we drove by, I went, oh, this is that street. And I'd, I'm from Dallas, it's a huge city. And I'd, I'd lift up if I was in the back seat and I'd look and I think, oh, that is the coolest. There was two of them. Oh, that's the coolest and oh, that's the coolest. And then I got a job as a newscaster and the office was, the main office was in, the station was in Fort Worth, but the office turned out to be in one of those buildings.
Kent: Wow.
Vicki: Yeah. And I had no idea. And I thought, oh, that is the coolest. That was a fun surprise.
Nathan: Just recently, my aunt turned 90 and the family put together a surprise party and she had no clue she was going to a restaurant that she always went to with her daughter and son in law. And we're all sitting in there waiting. And then of course, my brother and I were sitting next to each other. He turns to me at the same time I turn to him and we both ask the same question, does she have heart trouble? So while everyone, as she's coming in, everyone's like, surprise. And we're right in front going like, surprise. You know, very quietly subdued. We don't want to overwhelm her. But my aunt, who's a pretty tough person, tough exterior, personality, she started crying and she couldn't, she couldn't control it. Seeing all of her friends and family around her, it was, it was a wonderful experience. I've never seen her cry negatively or worse. Surprise. You know, I, man, I was sitting in my church office years ago and I just finished my sermon early on Friday and I said, wow, praise God, I can get ahead my life and everything. And then the phone rings and I could not understand the person on the other side because she was so upset. And the only reason I knew who it was was because caller ID came up. So I said, I'm driving to your house. So I drove over to find out what had happened. And one of her friends who was also a woman who came to our church, she was on a missions trip in South Africa and her and her daughter were on the way home to the airport when they were hit by a car and died. And so the South African security is calling our friend. She was really upset about it, obviously. And then the hard thing was she had an ex husband who she was estranged from. She had a mother, but she had newly started coming to our church. So I didn't know, I didn't have any contact information for everyone. So I had to go through and find who to call to inform them that their ex wife, their daughter, their, their relative has passed away.
Vicki: Well, that's a tough assignment.
Nathan: Oh man. And people responded, no, it's not true. Is this some sort of joke? It's just horrible. Right? So that's probably up there with one of the Worst surprises that you can get. The unexpected loss of a loved one and get that information from a total stranger.
Kent: I remember a surprise I had one day, maybe just both positive and negative. I got a call from a fellow that I had been meeting with in our church, from his wife, saying he was gone. He had disappeared. There had a big event, and he had left. And she was desperately afraid. She was afraid that he might do something desperate. And she called me, what can you do to help? And I'm like, what am I supposed to do? I'm a pastor. What am I supposed to do? This guy's missing.
Vicki: What do you mean missing? He left her, or he ran out.
Kent: Of the house, took off, got in a car and left. And he was so distraught. She was afraid that he might harm himself and asked if I can help. And I'm like, well, first of all, call the police. And second of all, what am I going to do? And I just desperately prayed. I remember something in our conversation that kind of twigged. And I got in my car between where the church was and where my home was. There was a undeveloped area. It was all just trees and a small brook going down the middle. And it was. No one could build there. It was just kind of agricultural, like a reservation area. And I drove down and for some reason pulled in off the road and started walking behind a bunch of trees. And I found him.
Vicki: Wow.
Kent: And I sat down with him and I talked with him and I prayed him, and I took him home to his wife. And I thought, that is just God. I don't know if I've had many God moments, but that was God. You directed me. You did this. You surprised me that you would use me to save this guy's life. And that was a surprise, a big surprise. We've all had surprises. But it may not surprise you that the most significant surprise of all time is going to occur at the end of time with Jesus at the center of it. And the entire event will catch us off guard. Jesus begins. The story begins in verse 31 of Matthew 25.
Vicki: I love to think about this. When I was a little girl, I'd be with my mother, and whenever we had a beautiful, sunny, gorgeous day with bright, gorgeous clouds, my mother would say, oh, Vicki, this is what it's going to be like when Jesus comes. I don't know that she knows, but it's just a happy. It's just a happy memory for me. It says in that verse, when the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him.
Kent: Isn't that incredible?
Vicki: Yeah, it is. When you think about how they bicker and get after each other, and instead they'll all gather before him.
Kent: Yeah. And shut up in front of him.
Nathan: That's the real miracle right there.
Kent: I mean, just think of the contrast. Jesus was born in a little town of Bethlehem. I mean, Luke will tell us he was born in a manger from parents that were suspected of being immoral, with a king attempting to kill him. I mean, that's a pretty humble beginning, right?
Vicki: That is.
Kent: But when Jesus says, when I return, yeah, this coming is going to be a bit different. I'm going to be coming in glory. What does the word glory mean when he says he's coming in glory?
Nathan: You know, I struggle with this word. It is so hard to define, Right. It is beauty. It is radiance, splendor, perfection. It's really hard to bring a concrete image to it. But when we experience glory, we all get it. Kind of like what Vicki just said, right? The beautiful day. It's all perfect.
Vicki: Wow.
Nathan: It's glorious, we'll say.
Kent: And maybe we can't find a word because it's beyond our understanding. We've never seen anything like it. We don't have a word to describe it. But it'll come when he comes. He comes in glory, and he comes with all his angels. Do you remember Jesus birth when the angels showed up?
Vicki: I was just thinking about that because I love that phrase. And the shepherds trembled sore? Afraid so.
Kent: If they trembled, imagine what the world's going to do when he shows up with all of his angels.
Vicki: All the angels.
Kent: Not some of them, all of them. And he'll be sitting on a lounge chair, Right?
Vicki: It says he'll be sitting on a glorious throne.
Kent: Why? What is a symbolism? Why a throne? Why not, you know, a stool?
Vicki: He's king of the world, king of the earth.
Kent: Right. And that means that this is the king the Magi were looking for. In Matthew chapter two, the Magi saw the star. They came to find the king. They found a baby. We know he would be the king, but now he is the king. And that's going to be the event that is going to start the end of all things when he returns. As we look at this, let's not forget the larger context that we keep reminding ourselves of. Do you remember the question that started all this back in Matthew 23?
Nathan: Right. Way back then, several podcasts ago, the disciples had asked, what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age. This is Jesus giving them information about what his second coming will be like. And he tells them about the day or hour no one knows. It will be when you do not expect him.
Kent: Right. And so he's really giving four answers to how to be ready for this unexpected return. The first one, in chapter 24, he says, well, the leaders of God's people will be ready if they nourish the people, he calls them to lead. And if they don't, what happens to them?
Vicki: If they don't, he says, the Master will cut them to pieces.
Kent: So he's not fooling around.
Vicki: No.
Nathan: Right, yeah. To be fair. I mean, this is justice that we want to see. Right. These are people who are abusing God's people in God's name.
Kent: They're predators.
Nathan: Absolutely. That's a good term.
Kent: They're not feeding the flock, they're eating the flock. In chapter 25, it goes on to tell us the parable of the five foolish virgins who forgot to bring oil in their lamps, the oil that was required for their lamps. He says it's stupid to await the return of our holy Savior without the internal righteousness he requires. And for them, what was the consequence?
Nathan: The door was shut. They're not allowed in.
Kent: They're not allowed in. Last week we saw that he turned to our wallets, to our money. And he says, those who don't invest money in ministries that bring a high rate of return for his kingdom will be declared. What?
Vicki: Lazy and wicked and thrown into the darkness.
Kent: That's severe. All these things are necessary. All these warnings must be heeded in order to be ready for this great and glorious day when Jesus comes. But perhaps the most direct teaching, the clearest teaching of how to be ready is included at the end of chapter 25, when Jesus outlines how Judge Jesus, the judge sitting on the throne, will evaluate all of humanity.
Vicki: Well, it says in verse 32, all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Kent: Hmm, that's pretty decisive. What do we learn in these two verses about Judge Jesus?
Vicki: Well, he's going to judge everybody. He's going to judge all humanity.
Kent: So not just the people of God.
Vicki: No goats and sheep.
Kent: So he's more than King of the Jews. He is the Lord of the universe, and when he comes, everyone is going to be judged. Okay. Anything else we see implied in these opening verses?
Nathan: There's only sheep and goats. There's no ducks, there's no chickens. There's no cows that go moo. By which you mean there's only two categories of people, right? There isn't a third option. There isn't a trapdoor or backway passage into eternal life in heaven. There isn't second chances. There's no makeup chance. There's no extra credit they can do if they fell behind.
Kent: There was lots of opportunity, but it had to be before, it could not be after. And as we'll see at the end of the chapter, the goats will What?
Vicki: In verse 46, he says they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
Kent: So this is like, this is serious. It doesn't get any more serious than this. Right? Right. I mean, time is just a brief moment. The older I get to realize, the more I realize how short life is.
Vicki: Isn't that the truth?
Kent: I often think life is like when you get on an airplane and you're taxiing on the Runway, the flight hasn't begun until you take off. Life is just on the taxiway, is just on the Runway. When death comes, we take off. That's where we had the real destination. And this is saying, what is the destination? Because we're not all going to end up in the same place. How will judge Jesus determine if a person is the sheep or the goat? That's, I think, the question everyone asks. Guys, I'm not sure if you're familiar with. I'm not sure our listeners are familiar with James Kennedy's evangelism explosion. Do you remember when that was a big deal?
Nathan: When I was a teenager, my church did a training on that and I was invited to sit in on it. Yes, I remember. And I remember, even as a teenager, I remember thinking, I don't know if this is going to fly with my generation, because the first question as you're casually talking to someone is, if you were to die today, do you know if you'd go to heaven?
Kent: I mean, I value James Kennedy's work, and we did it as a church, and it was helpful. But, you know, they're not. It's a recommendation. It's not necessarily a universal.
Nathan: I think it was certainly extraordinarily helpful when everyone had a rough idea of Christianity, when there was some sort of vestige of cultural Christianity within the United States of America. We don't really have that anymore. So a lot of people can reject the question out of hand. Like, well, I don't believe in heaven, or I, you know.
Kent: Yeah, I got that. But still, it's a question that at least makes me think.
Nathan: Absolutely.
Kent: If you were to die today, do you know that you would go to heaven? How do you think most people would answer that question? Assuming they understood the premise and agreed with the premise that there is a heaven, what reason would they give? Why should God let you into my heaven?
Vicki: I think most people would say heaven because they're optimists and they want to go there. And I think most people would say, because I've been good, I'm better than Hitler. I do. I think that's their bar.
Nathan: Hitler is their bar. I've only killed 1 million people.
Kent: 5 million people. Better.
Nathan: Mussolini? He's fine. Hitler? No, too many. Hitler and Mao. No, no, it's true. I can tell you. So my church, right, they did evangelism explosion. And they also had a Christian academy where they required the students to be Christ to go there. And my neighbors across the street, which were culturally Catholic, they weren't really strong in it. They were very offended because they tried to take the kids to the school and they asked them this question. If you were to die today, you'd go to heaven? And she confidently said yes. And the kids are telling us this and how horribly offensive our church was. And she said yes. Well, how do you know that? Because I was a good person because I didn't kill anyone, because I haven't cheated on my husband. And she's listening to all this stuff. And they were like. And then they said, wrong, you're not a good person. I'm sure they were much more tactful than the third hand telling that I was receiving. But absolutely, she was right there. My neighbors were right there. Yeah, I haven't killed anyone, so I'm going to heaven.
Kent: Yeah, it's easy to fall into that. I mean, after all, I went to seminary and I pastored a church and I taught in seminaries. And I must be a good person. If I don't qualify, who would qualify? We list stuff, stuff that we've done, why we're good. But look how Jesus answers this question. What is required in order to get into heaven? To the sheep, Jesus says, then the.
Vicki: King will say to those on his right, those are the sheep. Come, you who are blessed by my Father, take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
Kent: Now that's good news, isn't it? That's wonderful. I mean, we're going to. Wow. Yeah. So how does he follow that up? Why? Why will they get this inheritance he.
Vicki: Says, because I was hungry and you gave me something to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you invited me in. I needed clothes and you clothed me. I was sick and you looked after me.
Kent: Wow. That's not what I was expecting. What does he say to the goats?
Vicki: To the goats, he says, then he will say to those on his left, depart from me. You are cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink. I was a stranger and you did not invite me in. I needed clothes and you did not clothe me. I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.
Kent: Wow. So what is this criteria? Who is the one that gets into heaven and who's not? Like, what is the criteria he's using?
Vicki: Well, it's an interesting parable because it's not what you got in an evangelism explosion. No, this sounds like works and it's, you cared about me. He says, but I think he's talking about other people. You see people with a need and you meet it.
Kent: Yeah. So what he's saying is, to people, how did you respond to people in need? And I agree with you, Vicki. I mean, that sounds like works. Righteousness. I thought we were saved by faith.
Vicki: Right, exactly right.
Nathan: That's what Paul says.
Kent: Yeah. I mean, are you disagreeing with Romans? I mean, but if you think deeper, there obviously is logic to it. The fact is all people are born sinners, right? Can we agree with that?
Vicki: Yep.
Kent: Yes. There is no unrighteous, not even one. And the root of all sin is selfishness. I care about myself. The reason why we lie is because it'll benefit me. The reason why someone commits adultery is they think it'll benefit them. The reason why they steal is because they benefit them. All sin is ultimately rooted in selfishness. That's who we are. We are selfish as humans.
Nathan: I heard a good image about sin, and I use it often, is, I am the God of my own universe and you can't tell me what to do.
Kent: Ah, well said. And we see that all through life. Even children, right?
Vicki: Especially children. One of my favorite lines is from the author Prudence Macintosh. She said, anyone who doubts the total depravity of man, miss my two year old's birthday party.
Nathan: Perfect.
Kent: It's evident when people when we're kids. But it continues as we get older, doesn't it?
Vicki: Oh, yeah. We learn how to be selfish. Cleverly.
Nathan: That'S a good way of putting it. Right.
Kent: Children may take toys from others and push them out of the way so they can get down the playground slide first. But as people get older, sometimes there's fighting for the person we want to marry, fighting for our jobs, and climbing for the corporate ladder by stepping on others on the way up. Selfishness is everywhere, in everyone. But that's not God, is it?
Vicki: No.
Kent: I mean, what's perhaps the most famous verse in the Bible that makes that clear?
Vicki: You see it at football games on posters, and if you've looked it up, it says, for God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but will have eternal life. And then, I love this verse. God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.
Kent: God is not selfish. And when we put our trust in him, we are, as Scripture says, born again of water and the Spirit. Jesus is really clear. We are born again. We become new people. Unsaved people primarily love themselves, while the children of God primarily love others just as their heavenly Father does. I mean, isn't that what he said back In John chapter 13? Yeah.
Nathan: He said, a new command I give to you. Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples if you love one another.
Kent: So the mark of a disciple is love for others. And I guess the irony of that John 13 passage is that that command really isn't new. When the Pharisees asked Jesus what the greatest command was, he answered how.
Nathan: Jesus said, love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it, love your neighbor as yourself. All the law and the prophets hang on these two commandments.
Kent: So there's no question that the people of God, Old Testament and New are to be loving others as they love God. And the early church lived this out, didn't they?
Vicki: In Acts chapter two, it says they devoted themselves to the apostles teaching and fellowship. All the believers were together and they had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.
Kent: Wow. That's love, isn't it? Yes, when you sell what you have to help another Christian. But Jesus requires us to demonstrate love for everyone, just as God does, whether they are Christian or non Christian. That's what he makes very clear in Matthew chapter five.
Vicki: He says, you've heard that it was said, love your neighbor, hate your enemy. But I tell you, love your enemies, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. I don't like that. I just don't like it. I feel condemned. I don't feel hopeful.
Kent: I don't like this. And I don't think love comes naturally to us, but it does come out of our relationship with God, the people of God, Love. And what's fascinating is that when it comes to judgment Day, everyone will be surprised because he says to the sheep, what?
Nathan: Come, you who are blessed by my Father, take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.
Kent: Which is fascinating because they didn't say, whew, about time. I've been waiting for this. I mean, if you looked at the way that I love, I mean, I'm just so good. I'm perfect as the Father is perfect. So obviously I deserve that. No, that's not the response. How do they respond?
Vicki: In verse 37, they're surprised. They say, lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you as a stranger and invite you in or needing clothes and clothe you? When do we see you sick or in prison and go visit you?
Kent: No, they're saying, I don't even remember doing those things. Like, really, like, that's surprising.
Nathan: This is the first time I've seen you.
Kent: Yeah, but the goat people responded, how?
Vicki: The very same way, which is interesting. Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison and did not help you?
Kent: Right. And Jesus responds.
Vicki: He says, truly, I tell you, whatever you did not do for the least of one of these, you did not do for me.
Kent: Wow. Do you see the contrast? The sheep people didn't think twice about their care for the physical needs of others. It never occurred to them that that was significant. They just did it naturally. It just kind of flowed out of who they were. To invite struggling people to your home for a meal was. Well, that was no big deal. That's just hospitality. Giving a person a bottle of water is no big deal? Who wouldn't? Sending a card and also dropping by the hospital to pray for Someone before surgery. Well, that's nothing extraordinary. I mean, anybody could do that. But Jesus says it is a big deal because most people don't do it. Because you do that, because of your almost unconscious demonstrations of love. That is definitive proof that you're a son of God, that you're a child of God, that you have been born again. You are never more Christlike than when you demonstrate your love for all people, Christian or not Christian, anyone in need, in practical ways, to the goat people. Oh, goat people would never do that. I mean, goat people might write checks to charity once or twice a year for income tax reasons, of course. Or maybe they want to get their name on the wing of a hospital, but it never occurs to them to get out of their luxury cars when they drive past the homeless. And hospitality? Well, of course, but that's for clients. And it's always tax deductible. William Barclay said, the lesson of this parable is at the end of time, God will judge us in accordance with our reaction to human need. His judgment does not depend on the knowledge we have amassed, the fame we have acquired, or the fortune we have gained, but on the help we have given. It must be help that is uncalculating. Those who helped did not think they were helping Christ and accumulating eternal merit. They helped because they could not stop themselves. It was the natural, instinctive action of a loving heart. Whereas the attitude of those who failed to help was that ordinary people were not worthy of their help. If I'd known it was you, Jesus, of course it would have helped out. But because they saw no gain, they took no action. Because there's no better demonstration that we are a child of God than we display the love of God to those who need it. What will we do when we are surprised by Jesus? Return. When we see God in his glory, sitting on a throne, coming with all his agents. Can we just be honest? We're going to freeze. He will have our attention. It is going to be a showstopper and we're going to look for explanations. Why am I a sheep? What is this division going on? How can we explain this? Why am I in this lineup? And then there's going to be a shift. We'll begin to understand why this is happening. That those who are sheep have been born again and transformed by the work of God in their heart. And then we will share. Can't wait to share with others. Maybe around the marriage supper of the lamb as we rejoice, what has God done for us? What grace has he shown hey. In this chapter we learn that the final judgment will not determine our character, it will reveal it. People do not have good character because they do good works. They do good works because they have good character, because God has transformed them from selfish to giving. They have character transformed by the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Maybe now's the time to ask ourselves, how have I been showing the compassion of Christ naturally to those who deserve it and those who don't. Ask the question now because Jesus will ask it later.
Kristin: Christ is coming back. We need to be ready. And how can we know if we are ready? We can look at how we meet the physical needs of the hurting people around us. If we naturally care and there's nothing in it for us, it indicates we've been transformed by Christ. If we don't care, we're probably not ready for his return. If we're genuinely saved and filled with the Holy Spirit, we'll genuinely care about other people because God's people are giving people. I trust that today's discussion of God's Word has been helpful and served as an encouragement to not just be hearers of the Word, but doers together. Let's bring God's Word to life, to all our lives. This week, the crosstalk podcast is a production of crosstalk Global, equipping biblical communicators so every culture hears God's voice. To find out more or to support the work of this Ministry, please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org. we just held a phenomenal event in Southern California and we have an upcoming one in New England. Help us train the next generation of biblical communicators. All you have to do is click donate in the show notes and make a donation of any size. You can also support this show by sharing it on social media and telling your friends. Tune in next Friday as we continue our discussion through the Gospel of Matthew. Be sure to join us.
Nathan: Good stuff. This text was about year 2000, which is not seems like it's not that long ago, but it was 25 years ago. There was an album, it was a side project from some of the guys from a Christian ska group called Five Iron Frenzy. But this group was called Brave St. Saturn and I was listening to it and it was a good album and I was enjoying it. I remember I was driving around in the car listening to it and and then this one song came on. I think it was track number seven called Under Bridges and I pulled up the lyrics here and lyrics go Yesterday while walking beneath an overpass, I saw the figure of Jesus Standing barefoot on broken glass his beard was graying Smell of urine filled the air Asking if I had some change Anything that I could spare Emaciated his shaking fist Balled up Influenza and pneumonia Begging God to take his cup so different from his pictures Breathing air through yellowed tubes Jesus Christ dying of AIDS can look right through you And I almost hit the button to eject the CD and tossed it from my car. Blasphemous, all this stuff. I didn't, you know, because I spent a great deal of money on that cd. And when I got back, I looked at the lyrics in the liner notes and it had a reference to Matthew 25. So I said, I better read this. And so I read it and went through this text we just went through. And I said, oh, I get it. I get it. It was transformative to me. Like, it just was.
Kent: Yeah. And I guess what I like about it, and hopefully we made it clear it's unconscious. It's just who we are. It's just we're surprised because it didn't seem extraordinary or different or it didn't take effort. Right. It just became who we are. Fish don't think it's unusual to swim. Birds don't think it's unusual to fly. We don't. Christians should not find it unusual to help those who are in need. That's not a bad. It's not a bad line.
Nathan: I'm still recording, so I can drop this in.
Kent: Yeah. But it should be as natural for us to be helpful to those around us. The same way it's natural for fish to swim and birds to fly. Because we've been changed. We've been changed by the Gospel. It doesn't save us. It's an evidence that God has touched and transformed our heart.
Nathan: Well, in that text that you pulled in, be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Years of reflecting on that. What I think Jesus is saying is, it's not. You guys better be perfect or else be perfect the way God is perfect. How is God perfect? Is it because he's following rules and everything? No, it's from an outpouring of his inner character. And how do we also achieve moral goodness and clarity? It's an outpouring of our reliance on Christ and being filled with transformation.
Kent: He's made. We are a new creation.
Nathan: Right.
Kent: We are now filled with the Spirit.
Nathan: So don't try and be perfect through your own willpower. That's not going to work. Be perfect by submitting yourself to the transforming power of Christ.
Kent: Yeah.