What can we learn from little children?
Text: Matthew 19:13-20:16
Hosts:
J. Kent Edwards
Vicki Hitzges
Nathan Norman
Narrator: Brian French
The CrossTalk Podcast is a production of CrossTalk Global, equipping biblical communicators, so every culture hears God’s voice. To find out more, or to support the work of this ministry please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org
Produced by Nathan James Norman/Untold Podcast Production
© 2025 CrossTalk Global
Brian: Robert Fulgham wrote a famous book entitled All I really need to Know I Learned in kindergarten. What did he learn? Things like share everything. Play fair. Don't hit people. Put things back where you found them. Don't take things that aren't yours. Say you're sorry when you hurt somebody. Flush, take a nap. Every afternoon, join Nathan Norman, Vicki Hitskiss, and Kent Edwards as they take a cue from Robert Fulgham and learn the lesson Jesus disciples learned from little children in Matthew, chapter 19, verse 13, to chapter 20, verse 16. Welcome to Crosstalk, a Christian podcast whose goal is for us to encourage each other to not only increase our knowledge of the Bible, but to take the next step beyond information into transformation. Our goal is to bring the Bible to life, into all our lives. I'm Brian French. Today, Dr. Kent Edwards, Vicki Hitchkiss, and Nathan Norman continue their discussion through the Gospel of Matthew. If you have a Bible handy, turn to Matthew, chapter 19, verse 13, to chapter 20, verse 16. As we join their discussion.
Kent: Nathan, Vicki, of those insights that Robert Fulham learned in kindergarten, which of them resonated with you and why?
Nathan: Well, I mean, for me, number seven, Flush resonated with me because, you know, I've got three children in the house and they, you know, frequently have to be reminded to do the headphones. No, no, eight, though. Eight. When we were looking at this before the show started, take a nap every afternoon. I find, you know, if I can just, like, Conk out for 10, 15 minutes, I'm good to go.
Vicki: Put things back where you found them. I have a friend that fixes things for me, and I appreciate that so much. I grew up in a house with a dad who couldn't fix anything. And when I say that I'm not, I mean, I can use that word. I mean anything. And this guy can fix everything, but he doesn't put the tools up. And so when I go to get a hammer or a screwdriver, it is not there. And it drives me crazy. Which is not to say I don't appreciate him fixing stuff, but put things.
Nathan: Amen and hallelujah to me.
Kent: I thought of don't hit people.
Vicki: Oh, that's hard for you?
Kent: No, I just. One of the things that is so valuable is, you know, we're all tempted when we're grieved by someone to grieve them, to fight, to push. If they push you, you feel like you want to push them back. The problem with wanting revenge is that it always comes back to bite you, and it never makes things better. It always makes things worse. Even when someone doesn't say they're sorry. Yeah, let it go. Forgive them and move on. Good advice to learn in kindergarten. Good advice to put into place every day. We can learn a lot from children, and I think we may learn a fair bit from children as we look at that passage in Matthew 19. Vicki, help us jump right into this week's natural unit.
Vicki: Okay. It says in verse 13, people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them, but the disciples rebuked them.
Kent: Okay, so what about this verse surprises you?
Vicki: Well, that the disciples rebuked them. Although the disciples were always doing the wrong thing.
Nathan: They'Re not really surprised.
Vicki: Yeah. Why did I pick these guys?
Kent: To the disciples, I think they're probably good and they're pretty emblematic of us, right?
Vicki: Maybe. Maybe it's like when people show up as little kids at a wedding and you're like, get those kids out of here.
Nathan: Listen, though. Listen. I have. I've ministered in California as a pastor, New York and Michigan, and I've heard horror stories from people in all of those places. When they come to visit our church, they will ask, if my baby cries in the service, are you going to stop the service and call me out?
Kent: Wow.
Nathan: I've heard horror stories of people saying, the pastor stopped and said, get that kid out of here. You know, I, you know, can't concentrate or whatever. And to the point where now if I hear a baby cry and I can see the parents are frazzled about it, I'm like, hey, isn't it great that there are children in church and that we can hear them? Because the kingdom of God belongs to such, right? Like. Like I'm now reactionary towards that because I've heard so many horror stories of.
Vicki: How gracious of you. That's great.
Nathan: That gets me kicked out of the service. So, no, I get it. Right. But it's hard, right? If the kid's crying or screaming or talking about whatever, it's really hard to concentrate. And then if you. I mean, to be fair to the disciples, you know, hear Jesus and you have, like all these dignitaries and rich people talking to them, and then these little ankle biters run up and they're like, hey, you know, like, hey, he's got more important things to deal with, right? Like, you know, if you have a peace treaty between Palestine and Israel, right? And then all these kids run up with water guns, like, get out of here. This is more important.
Kent: But you're right. Today in our churches, we tend to value children. How many times have we not heard pastors say, oh, if you want to grow a church, you need to have a good kids program, a good youth program. If you minister to the children, you'll influence the families. That's common today. But culturally that wasn't done in the century, was it, Nathan?
Nathan: Well, no, because today we value children. And I don't think we realize how anti historical that is. For the vast majority of human history, people have not valued children. And certainly in first century Judea and Galilee, children were not valued as highly as we do today.
Kent: Why do you think? What caused that?
Nathan: Well, from a Roman perspective, they were seen as potentiality. Maybe one day they will grow up and be great. But now you're mostly a nuisance. And even from kind of that first century Judean, Galilean perspective, they didn't see them as full participants. They didn't see them as fully valuable like we do.
Kent: Yeah, well, infant mortality rate was so high, they didn't know whether it's worth committing to kids because who knows if they're going to grow up anyway.
Nathan: No, that's true. That's very true. In fact, some lines of Greek thought basically said, you should wake up every day emotionally distancing yourself from your kids.
Vicki: Wow. Wow.
Kent: So Jesus is really being countercultural here in verse 14, isn't he?
Vicki: Well, he said, let the little children come to me and don't hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these. And when he placed his hands on them, he went on from there.
Kent: This verse seems odd to me when he says, the kingdom of heaven belongs to such of these, especially in light of what happens next.
Vicki: Well, it says just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life? Why do you ask me about what is good? Jesus replied, there is only one who is good. And if you want to enter life, keep the commandments. Which ones? He inquired. Everybody looks for a loophole, don't we? I mean, it's always. And Jesus replied, you shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself. All of these I've kept. The young man said, what do I still lack?
Kent: How would you summarize this man's opinion of himself?
Vicki: Pretty darn high. You've never lied, you've never sassed your mother or your father. You've always been kind to everybody. I doubt it.
Kent: Yeah, but that is a good thing, isn't it, to strive to live a moral life.
Vicki: Yeah, it's great.
Kent: So you think, in a sense, Jesus would commend him, right, for that. Thank you for living such a good life, for taking the law of God seriously.
Vicki: Well, since Jesus knew him and knew his heart, I think he'd be more like me and think, duh, I doubt it. I mean, not even. I doubt it, but I know you haven't.
Kent: But certainly the other religious people in the crowd, they would have been oppressed by a man who, at least outwardly, said that I have kept the law.
Vicki: If they believed him, they would.
Kent: So it would have been surprising to them. In verse 21, when Jesus answered, well.
Vicki: Here'S what Jesus said. He said, if you want to be perfect, go sell your possessions and give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven and then come follow me.
Kent: Wow, that's a strong statement, isn't it?
Vicki: Yes, it is.
Kent: He's setting a high bar to become a follower of Jesus. He's saying, give away everything of value.
Nathan: That's what we do with altar calls at the church. We have a credit card machine and a computer set up so you can transfer all your crypto over to the church and a little bin that you could put all your belongings in. Right. If any of you feel, if you're prepared, come bring all your stuff. Yeah. It's a massive bar.
Kent: Yeah. And we don't give that as an altar call. We don't make that a demand to become a follower of Christ, do we? When you share the gospel with someone, what do you ask them to do?
Vicki: To put your trust in Christ in his death and resurrection? Which, when you read this and Christ is saying it, is a bit concerning.
Kent: Right. Because Jesus is saying, give all your money away.
Vicki: Jesus is saying it.
Kent: Yeah. Which is not exactly what Billy Graham said on a regular basis.
Vicki: No. And sometimes when I read what Christ says, I think you've got this wrong.
Kent: Which probably means because we all do the same thing. What am I not understanding? Right?
Vicki: Mm.
Kent: So look how the story continues.
Vicki: Well, the young man heard it and he went away sad because he had great wealth. And Jesus said to his disciples, truly, I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to. To enter the kingdom of heaven. Again, I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.
Kent: Again, he's doubling down on the wealth, Right. He's talking more about money. And he uses his well known but maybe seldom understood metaphor that it's easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle than the first summoner's rich to enter the kingdom of God. Let's try and unpack that a bit. What does the camel represent in this metaphor?
Vicki: I'm guessing. I'm guessing he's saying it is hard for a wealthy person to get into heaven. It is hard for a camel. The man's money. Yeah. Sometimes I'm thinking a rich man is the camel. It's hard for the camel.
Kent: Yeah. So in the same way that a camel can't transform himself into a flea in order to crawl through the eye of a needle. So it's impossible for this rich man to make himself a beggar in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. It can't be done.
Vicki: He can't transform himself, but it can be done. I know some very wealthy people that are going to heaven.
Kent: So that's what makes this so strange, doesn't it? What is Jesus talking about here? His disciples felt the same thing. He thought this was strange. They thought what Jesus was saying was strange. Look at what he says. Look at how they responded.
Vicki: Verse 25, it says, when the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, well, then, who can be saved?
Kent: And that's our question. If you have to give up everything to be saved, living a good life is not enough. You have to give up everything, then who can be saved? Okay, let's step back and consider what we've heard. Does wealth make it difficult to enter the kingdom of heaven?
Vicki: Well, to hear Jesus tell it, it makes it impossible.
Kent: I think he's right. I think it is more difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than for someone who is poor.
Nathan: Well, so culturally, let's look at the disciples, right? They said, well, then, who can be saved? Because in their mind, this rich young man was blessed by God. Oftentimes in the first century, they saw material wealth as a sign of God's favor for them and their lives and their lifestyle, right? So here's the best of the best that Israel has to offer. And Jesus tells him, you're not good enough, right? So talk about countercultural, right? Countercultural with the kids, and now countercultural with the wealthy person. They're trying to get rid of the little children. And here the assumption is that the disciples are like, well, this guy is getting into heaven and he's now on our team. And Jesus says, well, get rid of all of your possessions. Wait, what? And part of the reason, as my wife points out all the time, Is that the more you have materially, the less you think you need to rely on God.
Kent: Yes.
Nathan: When you don't have anything, you absolutely have to rely on God because he's all you got. You have no other place to go.
Kent: Vicki, you love to share the gospel with people. What circumstances when a person faces make them more likely to receive Christ as their savior? Is there something happening in their lives that make them more open to the gospel than others?
Vicki: Well, I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at, but the easiest I've ever shared the gospel, right, it's had people left and right. Was in prison.
Kent: Sure. Why?
Vicki: Well, they didn't have any problem admitting they were sinners. I mean, they didn't have any problem with that. And they. They were interested and eager.
Kent: There's no place to go but up, right?
Vicki: Yep.
Kent: They're desperate. They don't have resources that can save them from this situation. I found that as a pastor, meeting with people when they are very sick suddenly start thinking of eternity in ways they never did before because they don't have the resources to get rid of this cancer, to get rid of this disease, whatever it may be. They're desperate, so they turn to Jesus as Christ talk. We minister around the world, and many of the places that we minister are impoverished. People just don't have any money. And when you have no resources and nothing of your own to help you out of your situation, you're more likely to be open to hearing about a God who wants to care for you and loves you. Right. Money is an insulator. People who are wealthy often use money to solve all of their problems. They think that money can insulate them. They can buy the best doctors, they can live in the best houses, they can afford to eat the best food. They can get the best education. Money makes them feel like they've got everything they need and they have no need of God. That's the danger of money. It's not evil, but it's dangerous. I think that's why Jesus said, remember back in Matthew chapter six?
Vicki: Well, he said in verse 19, don't store up for yourselves treasures on earth where moths and vermin destroy and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. No one can serve two masters. You cannot serve both God and money.
Kent: So when Jesus tells this man, good for you, you live a moral life. Now give away all your money. What is he saying to him?
Vicki: Quit relying on money.
Kent: And what do you want more what do you value more? Do you value your money more than me? Or me more than money? The story takes another sharp turn when Peter suddenly sees this encounter as a personal, spiritual opportunity. Hey, if I give up everything, then I'll get heaven too. I think he's thinking, if I sacrifice everything I have materially, then this is like a gold mine, because look at what I'm going to have in eternity.
Nathan: Peter answered, jesus, we've left everything to follow you. What then will there be for us?
Kent: You got to laugh at this, don't you? I got to love Peter. Peter says what we all think at times, but, you know, maybe a little too polite to say out loud, if I give up everything and I have to follow you, what do I get? What do I get? This is like buying apple shares back in the day, right when it was worth almost nothing. Man, if I invest all this now, this is my future guaranteed. And Jesus seems to agree with him.
Vicki: Well, he says in verse 28, truly, I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on 12 Thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive 100 times as much and will inherit eternal life.
Kent: So Jesus seems to be endorsing that, right?
Vicki: Sounds like it.
Kent: So should we take his advice? Should you give away your home to the homeless, Vicki? Should you give away your car to the next stranger? You see, Nathan, should we all become monks and nuns and shun everything in life? Is that how we get to the top of the heap in eternity? Well, just when the disciples think that riches can turn you into a camel that cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, when they begin to think that it's poverty that gets you into the kingdom, and not just an entrance pass, but filthy rich in eternity as well. It's then that Jesus looks at them with a stern look in his eye and says in verse 30, but many.
Nathan: Who are first will be last, and many who are last will will be first.
Kent: Hmm. That's a transition. And this story takes yet another turn in chapter 20 with a final parable. And here Jesus clarifies his earlier comments about heavenly rewards.
Vicki: It says, the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
Kent: Okay, before we go any further, we need to know who's who? Who is the landowner in this story?
Nathan: Jesus.
Kent: Okay, It's Jesus. And who was hired early in the morning?
Nathan: The disciples.
Kent: Okay. His followers. Right, Right. Yeah. What time do you think that his work offer was given? These are farmers, I'm guessing. What? Farmers tend to get up early. Right. Make the most of the day, maybe 5am and what did the king promise to pay them?
Nathan: Denarius, which is typically a day's wage.
Kent: Day's wage for a worker. Good. So with that in mind, let's continue with the story.
Nathan: About nine in the morning, the landowner went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. He told them, you also go and work in my vineyard and I will pay you whatever is right.
Kent: So they went, oh, okay. So now he sees other people later in the morning and says, I got a job for you as well. In America, it's been pretty common. If you want to have someone help you around the house, you can go to a large mall outside Home Depot hardware store and you'll find a bunch of people standing around looking for work for the day. So I get that. That's kind of what's happening here. This man sees someone 9am and offers them a job as well. And then this hiring thing turns into a habit.
Nathan: He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. About five in the afternoon, he went out and found still others. It's the end of the day. Standing around, he asked them, why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing? Because no one has hired us, they answered him. He said to them, you also go and work in my vineyard.
Kent: Hmm. Let's assume the day began at 5:00am and ended at 6:00pm how long did crew number one work for?
Vicki: Well, if they started at five and ended at six, that's 13 hours.
Kent: Okay. And crew number two?
Nathan: 9:00Am to 6:00pm is nine hours.
Kent: Yeah, but crew number three, they only had to work six hours.
Vicki: 12 to 6. Uh huh.
Kent: Yep.
Vicki: And crew number four, three to six is three hours.
Nathan: And number five, 5:00pm to 6:00pm is an hour.
Kent: Okay. Five different crews all working different hours. And with that in mind, in verse.
Vicki: 8 it says, when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first. Each one of them received a denarius, and when they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. These who were hired last worked only an hour, they said, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.
Kent: Sounds like the workers need a labor union, don't they?
Vicki: Sounds like it.
Kent: Why does this sound so unfair?
Vicki: Well, because if I got there at five in the morning and you got there and I worked all day long and you got there late and you worked one hour and we got paid the same, it doesn't seem fair.
Kent: No, group number one got the bad end of the deal. And why not be crew number 5 or 4? Couple hours work, you get the same pay, it doesn't seem fair. I think group number one, they would be. And they were upset, very upset. It seems like they were not given proper treatment. But this passage is not advocating unfair labor payments. The Bible says much in both the Old Testament and the New Testament that employers must pay wages, fair wages, to their workers. In fact, if you're not sure about this, I suggest you listen to a podcast a number of years ago back from James chapter 5. There, God is very clear about what he thinks about employers that gouge their employees. But here, in this context, he's not really talking about how to pay wages. It's a parable. The context here is our rewards in heaven for our service and our sacrifices on earth for him. And he's saying no one deserves salvation, no one earns it, no one is owed it. And for Peter and the disciples to try to figure out how they can become billionaires in eternity because of their sacrifice on earth, that's insulting. That's just insulting. That's why he says in verse 30.
Vicki: So the last will be first and the first will be last.
Kent: That's what he's talking about, those workers in the vineyard. That's why he changed the payment method into the most undeserving first. Nothing is more disqualifying than for us to think that since the rich young man lost his reward because of his love of money, that the opposite is what gets you ahead. Our financial and physical sacrifices will bring great rewards in heaven, there's no question. But if that's what you want, if that's why you sacrifice, then you're very far from God indeed. The lesson of this extended story is in its opening scene. Back in verse 14 of chapter 9.
Nathan: Jesus said, Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.
Kent: Jesus wants us, like these children, to run to Jesus because of who he is, not for what we can get from him. He wants to hold us. He wants to place his hands on us and bless Us, he wants us to enjoy the innocent, loving relationship of a child. And the rich young ruler lost his relationship with God because he loved his money more than Christ. In fact, he said to Jesus, if you remember back in verse 18, Teacher, what good thing must I do to. To get eternal life? What did he want? Eternal life. What was he not looking for Jesus? He was not looking for Jesus. He didn't want Jesus. He wanted what Jesus could give him. The rich young ruler lost his relationship with God because he loved money more. The disciples thought they could leverage their relationship with God so that their sacrifices today could bring them success in eternity. They too were thinking, what can I get? How can I make my life, my eternity, better? Both were putting their love of reward before their love of God. And Jesus is saying, love me, Come without schemes of self advancement. Love me like a baby wants his mother. A baby wants his mother for who she is, not just for what she can give her. And that's why this story ends with that line that was repeated earlier in verse 30 we read.
Vicki: So the last will be first and the first will be last.
Kent: If all you want is what God can give you and not him, you won't have either. The truth of this passage reminds me of a story, Vicki, that your dad, Haddon Robinson, told on occasion. He told this story about when you and your brother were very young and he'd play a little game with you. He would put a coin or a couple of coins in his hand and hold them tight in a fist. Your new brother would come along and try to pry open his fingers to get what was inside. And he would struggle with you for a while and then let you win and pry open his hands. Your brother would take the coins and run off and be happy. As your dad said, there's nothing wrong with that.
Nathan: There's.
Kent: That's a children's game. But he made the point that that's sometimes how we view God. We come to Him. We want what we can get from him, how he can make our life better. And often he gives that to us and he does enrich our life. But then we just run away because we're satisfied with what he can give us and not Him. Let's not make that same mistake that this rich young ruler and even the disciples were making. Let's, like the little children of old, let's want him not for what he can give us or what we can gain from following him, but purely, simply, wholly and only want Him. Jesus loves all of his children, but he will not be manipulated by them. He is enough. He is enough. Let's want him, and all these other things will be added unto us.
Brian: The key to understanding this passage lies in the children that came to Jesus just because they wanted to be with him, to know him and be held by Him. That's why Jesus said, let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these. We need to ask ourselves, what do we want from Jesus? Is it to get something from Jesus, or do we want him? I trust that today's discussion of God's Word has been helpful and served as an encouragement to not just be hearers of the Word, but doers together. Let's bring God's Word to life, to our lives. This week, the crosstalk Podcast is a production of crosstalk Global, equipping biblical communicators so every culture hears God's voice. To find out more about this educational nonprofit organization, please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org. this month we're training biblical communicators in Panama and Kenya. And next month we're launching a new cohort in Southern California. Help us empower the next generation of biblical communicators. All you have to do is click donate in the show notes and make a donation of any size. You can also support this show by rating it on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're enjoying it. Be sure to listen next Friday as we continue our discussion of the Gospel of Matthew. You won't want to miss it.
Kent: Just one little change in the introduction number nine. Just scratch that off. I thought it was going to be really clever, but I realize internationally no one will know what Dick and Jane.
Vicki: Books are and nobody under 50 is going to know.
Nathan: I'm aware of Dick and Jane because a cultural zeitgeist, but not that I grew up with them.
Vicki: How old are you, Nathan?
Nathan: Just because older people would talk about it all the time.
Vicki: Watch it, watch it.
Nathan: I'm 42.
Vicki: Unbelievable.
Nathan: 42. Going on 87. Just not. Not because of wisdom or anything. Just because of, you know, hard knocks. Physical. Physical age. Yeah.