What's one of the worst breaches of trust?
Text: Matthew 19:1-12
Hosts:
J. Kent Edwards
Vicki Hitzges
Nathan Norman
Narrator: Brian French
Taste of CrossTalk Seminary (Irvine, CA)
David Carder Anatomy of an Affair
The CrossTalk Podcast is a production of CrossTalk Global, equipping biblical communicators, so every culture hears God’s voice. To find out more, or to support the work of this ministry please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org
Produced by Nathan James Norman/Untold Podcast Production
© 2025 CrossTalk Global
Brian: Everyone makes commitments. If you agree to go out to dinner with a friend next Friday night, you have committed your time. If you apply for admission to a school, you commit to putting effort into your studies. When you take a job, you commit to helping your employer succeed. If you take out a mortgage on a home, you are committed to making timely monthly payments. Commitments can lead to a better future, but failing to keep the commitments we've made always makes life worse. If you don't show up at the restaurant Friday night, you wound a relationship. If you fail to hand in assignments, you can be expelled from school. If you are not productive at work, eventually you will be fired. And if you don't make your mortgage payments, you could be homeless. The larger the commitment, the greater the consequences when we fail to keep our word. Join Kent Edwards, Nathan Norman and Vicki Hitchkiss's conversation on Matthew 19, verses 1 through 12, as they learn about one of the worst breaches of trust people commit and the life altering consequences that follow. Welcome to CrossTalk, a Christian podcast whose goal is for us to encourage each other to not only increase our knowledge of the Bible, but to take the next step beyond information into transformation. Our goal is to bring the Bible to life, into all our lives. I'm Brian French. Today, Dr. Kent Edwards, Vicki Hitskiss and Nathan Norman continue their discussion through the Gospel of Matthew. If you have a Bible handy, turn to Matthew, chapter 19, verses 1 to 12 as we join their discussion.
Kent: Nathan, Vicki, this is maybe a silly question, but have you ever witnessed people breaking their promises?
Vicki: Yeah, of course, everybody has.
Kent: Do any in particular stick out to you?
Nathan: I'm very generous with my time and so if you need to talk, I will give you as much time as you need. Right. Like, I never have any problem with that. However, if you beg and beg and if you, if you say I need to talk and then you don't bother to show up or answer the phone. Right. I've rearranged my entire schedule for you and I am committing, I'm sacrificing my own time for you. That irks me to no end. Or I've gone to the restaurant and I'm waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting and you don't even respond to the text or phone call. Hey, where are you? Right, that's frustrating. That is very frustrating to me.
Vicki: Has that happened to you very often?
Nathan: It's happened often enough that I'm feeling very passionate about it right now. I would say it happens about once a year as a pastor where someone agrees to meet or they want to meet, and they need. Oh, I really need to talk to you. Okay. And I avail myself, and I rearrange my schedule and I change times and who's picking up kids and all this stuff, Right. And then nothing. Right. I don't mind meeting with you. I don't mind doing all of that. I want to spend time with you. I want to hear from you. But I don't like being stood up.
Vicki: Oh, that's. I wish I'd gone first. That's as bad as it gets. I have two friends that maybe they'll show up, maybe they won't. Their biggest deal is that one of them will show up, the other one may or may not. But they're both late. They're just. There's. I just. I just. I go 15 minutes late, and I know I'm still gonna have to sit there, and it just ticks me off. And one of them. I lost a friendship over it because I. Because I just. I just let her have it. It just ticked me off. And the other one, I almost lost a friendship over it. It's just so rude.
Kent: I remember I was planning a mission strip, and they had a bunch of people who made longtime commitments that they were going to come and be part of that. And all kinds of finances were raised and plans were put together and expectations had been made. And like, a week before we were going to leave, this person called, said I was not going. And I'm like, what? It's not like he had cancer or his wife was sick or something. I just. No, I just decided I don't want to do that. And to me, that's like trying to sit on a chair that has one leg that's broken. I mean, if a person can't follow through, then I can't lean on them again. I'm not going to sit down on that chair if it's going to put me on the floor again. No, you don't keep your word. Confidence is lost. Trust is broken. That happens to us. It happened to Jesus. We see that in Matthew 19. Although the mood of the passage starts off positive, doesn't it?
Vicki: It says in the very first verse, jesus left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.
Kent: Well, that sounds wonderful, doesn't it? Here's Jesus touching people, helping people, consistent with what he's done in the past. But the mood changes quickly when the Pharisees approach Jesus. And perhaps because of Jesus growing popularity, they asked Jesus a particularly Volatile question.
Vicki: It says in verse three, some Pharisees came to him to test him, and they asked, is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?
Kent: Wow, that's not a small question, is it? They're introducing a hot topic, one filled with controversy. I mean, it's controversial today isn't.
Nathan: Sure is. Inside and outside of the church.
Kent: The debate in the first century was different than ours, but strikingly familiar. And it came among the Jewish people out of the Bible. The debate on divorce centered on Deuteronomy 24:1.
Vicki: Well, you're calling this a hot topic. I would think Christian Christ would say, no, of course not. Anyway, here's what Deuteronomy 24:1 says. He says if a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, he can write a certificate of divorce, give it to her, and send her from his house.
Kent: Okay? So Moses in the law talks about divorce, and he says if a woman does something, if he finds his wife has done something indecent, he can give her a certificate of divorce. So you know what the debate is going to be among these Jewish scholars?
Vicki: What's indecent?
Kent: What does it mean to do something indecent? And, Nathan, you know, there were two schools of thought in this subject.
Nathan: Yes. Rabbi Hillel, which is often called the liberal view in the classic use of that term, meant something indecent was anything which displeased the husband. So that could include burning the disp. Dinner and messing up the way you're disciplining the kids, cleaning the house.
Kent: Anything.
Nathan: Yeah. And another rabbi, not Hillel, but a later one, had even said that it could mean that even if he found someone who is more beautiful than his current wife.
Kent: Oh, anything displeasing in any way.
Nathan: Why aren't you as pretty as you were 10 years ago? Right.
Kent: How come you're not as young as you were 10 years ago?
Nathan: Right. How dare you? How dare you age.
Kent: So that's the liberal view.
Nathan: Right. And then there was Shammai, the conservative view, who said basically it was adultery. That's how he said it was. He's referring to indecency in the classical definition of nakedness, nudity, shameful exposure. Right. So that obviously what Moses was talking about was, you know, some kind of adultery or sexual immorality along those lines.
Kent: Sure. So which view do you think was most popular in the first century?
Nathan: I don't like how you question that or how you phrase that question, which was more popular with the men who were making the rules. That's probably the way to ask that.
Kent: Good question. And what's the answer?
Nathan: Hello. I'm sure Chemae was more popular with the women, but they didn't have a say in the whole thing, so.
Vicki: So it was widely accepted they could just put their wife away because basically they wanted to. They just found an excuse.
Kent: Yeah.
Vicki: And that was widely accepted?
Kent: Yes. Not among all the people. There are, obviously, just as there are today. There are people today in our culture, some who very open in the opportunity for a divorce. If things don't go well, if there's a hassle or something that is displeasing in the widest sense of the word, people can go have divorces. And other people among the Christian community take a much firmer view on divorce. So there's differences of opinion, but that was one. So the Pharisees come and they asked this question because I think they knew that the people who were listening, who thought Jesus was such a great guy, they were trying to get him to take a very, as you mentioned earlier, Vicki, to just say, no, that's wrong. But that would have cost him the attention or the. The adulation of the crowds.
Nathan: He'd lose popularity.
Kent: He would lose popularity. His poll numbers might go down. You have that same difference between liberals and conservatives in the church today. I mean, I find it fascinating that Barna's research tells us that 28% of Christian men who have been married have also experienced a divorce. In fact, the divorce rate among Christians is the same as it is among non Christians.
Nathan: Wow.
Kent: Isn't that fascinating and discouraging?
Vicki: It's terrible.
Kent: The Pharisees wanted to hurt Jesus popularity and influence with the people by testing him. That's what the text told us. They came to test him, a word that literally means solicitation to sin. It was an attempt to have Jesus compromise his view in order to keep his popularity. So we know that Jesus doesn't compromise. But it's fascinating to see how he answered. He said in verse four, he says, haven't you read?
Vicki: He replied that at the beginning the Creator made them male and female and said, for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, let no one separate.
Kent: Jesus was saying that the Pharisees were misunderstanding marriage, that rather than having an easy option of divorce, that marriage is to be seen as a permanent union of two people. When a man and a wife come together in marriage. They literally become one flesh. On our wedding day, our spouse becomes literally a part of our body, and we can no more jettison our spouse than we can exchange one of our legs or arms with another person. We are joined together. We become one. The Pharisees object to this. And by the way, is Jesus having a lower opinion of divorce or higher? Who is he siding with, the liberals or the conservatives?
Nathan: All the conservatives. The Shamai. His view.
Kent: Yeah. He doesn't debate their bad exegesis of Moses. He goes way back to the beginning and says, look, this is how God made us. This is how the world operates. We cannot ignore what God has said in Genesis chapter two. The Pharisees object. What is their objection?
Vicki: I said, well, why then did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?
Kent: Huh? What's wrong with that objection?
Vicki: Well, Jesus said, moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that every. Anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality and marries another woman, commits adultery.
Kent: Ah. So Jesus says that God's ideal is for there to be no divorce. That's his purpose. That's how it started in Genesis 2.
Nathan: Yeah. Something important here to mention, too, is that the popular teaching of the time amongst those who are in the Hillel camp, they weren't just saying that divorce, you know, sometimes is a necessary reality in our world. They were saying that it was a positive good, that it was a moral thing to do. And Jesus now comes in and he subverts that and says, no, no. The ideal is that you get married and stay married. Moses gave you divorce because he knew of your fallen nature. So even for Moses, divorce was a concession that he gave to protect against the wickedness of human hearts, not a moral good that they should be practicing.
Kent: And obviously, Jesus, in his answer, confronts that and sides very clearly with Shammai. I mean, we know that because there's only one reason for divorce. What does he say?
Vicki: Sexual immorality.
Kent: It seems that the sexual union between husband and wife is the most intimate and personal expression of love possible. It creates and demonstrates a marriage. According to what Jesus is saying, our wedding nights are not only an expression of our marriage vows, it's really the creation of our union. It's when two become one for life. That's why Paul says what he does in 1 Corinthians 6.
Vicki: He says, do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute. Never. Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in the body? For it is said that two will become one flesh.
Kent: There's a lot of truth packed into those few verses. Paul is pointing out that to have sex with someone who is not our spouse is not only to betray our spouse in the deepest, most painful way possible, but it's also to betray our God. Because our bodies are not only joined to our spouses, our bodies are members of Christ himself. Adultery doesn't just have the potential to cancel our marriage vows. It can also destroy our relationship with Christ. As Christian husbands and wives. We are not only united to our spouses, we're united to Christ. To offer our bodies to anyone else other than our spouse is an offense against God as well. That's powerful stuff. We don't talk about adultery in that kind of way today often, do we?
Vicki: I haven't been in a, like a career, college and career class in a long time, but I heard about that a lot when I was growing up. I don't know if they do that so much anymore. I don't remember hearing it a lot from the pulpit, but I did hear that a lot when I was coming up, and I don't think it's taught so much. I remember my brother, who's a pastor, was counseling a couple who was living together before they got married, and Tori said, you know, it's wrong to live together. And the guy said, genuinely shocked. You're kidding. Yeah.
Nathan: Isn't that something else? It really is, because it's so shifted. And so it's amazing because when we take that stance that sex is between a man and woman in marriage, only for marriage. And when we make that stand in a bygone. When I was growing up, that would have been like, wow, what a holy roller. Right? That's a holy thing. And who can possibly ever attain to that? But now, because cultural shifts have happened.
Vicki: The whole culture shifted.
Nathan: Now you are a bigot for saying that. You're not holier than thou. You are lower than thou. You are the absolute most immoral person to say you should be sexually faithful to one person in the bonds of marriage for lifetime. Now you're bigoted for saying that. It's really weird.
Vicki: When I was coming up, everybody knew that. They may or may not have practiced it, but everybody knew that to the point that even married people on TV had separate beds.
Kent: That's true.
Vicki: Yeah.
Kent: No, in our entertainment and our Social media, sexual promiscuity is everywhere. Everywhere and considered healthy and good.
Vicki: Healthy and good, yeah.
Kent: But according to scripture, sexual union with someone other than our spouse is never just a fling, an affair, or a meaningless mistake. It's a violent act of betrayal of our spouse and of our God. Which is why Paul says to the Corinthians, you are not your own. You were bought at a price.
Vicki: Therefore, honor God with your bodies.
Kent: That's what we are to do. We are to honor God with our bodies. But Jesus disciples realized the weight of what he had just said. They were caught off guard, weren't they? I mean, what was their response when Jesus came down so hard on the conservative Shammai approach to sex and marriage?
Vicki: Well, you'd think that wouldn't be a surprise to them, but they acted like they were stunned. They said to him, if this is a situation between a husband and a wife, it's better not to marry.
Kent: In other words, this was a cultural shift for them, even in the Jewish community. Right. Apparently he's coming down hard and they're like, man, how can I put up with one woman for life? I mean, how could I ever do that? I mean, this is.
Nathan: Well, think about what Jesus is telling them here. Here they in their minds, if I get married, I can always dangle divorce as a form of control and power over my wife. Right. In the ancient world, the wife, the women were always dependent on their families because they didn't have a lot of opportunities to work. And so outside of the protection of the family, they were incredibly vulnerable to exploitation and to starvation. And so now the husband's like, oh, you know, well, you know, you better make me that sandwich, otherwise I'm going to divorce you. Better have sex with me tonight, otherwise I'm going to divorce you. Right. Like the amount of power and influence. And Jesus comes over and says, no, no, you're supposed to have this mutual love relationship. And the disciples are like, well, what am I going to dangle over her now? Right? Like what, how am I going to have. How am I going to keep my woman in control? And it's absolutely mind boggling to them because he's just taken away all of their power in marriage in their mind.
Kent: Yeah. Well, and the apostle Paul in Ephesians 5 says that we are to love our wives as Christ loves the church.
Nathan: Right, right.
Kent: How did Christ love the church so much?
Vicki: He was willing to die for the church.
Kent: It was sacrificial. I will do anything I can for the benefit of the church, for the benefit Therefore, of my wife. So I find myself, at times, surprisingly, my wife and I don't agree on everything all the time.
Nathan: What?
Kent: And sometimes I'm like. And I go, no, this has to work. This is going to work. How do I do whatever I can do to make sure our relationship is as strong as it can be?
Nathan: Humble yourself and realize that Nola is right.
Kent: You know, my wife is listening. That's it, you know, but you're very right. And Jesus says to disciples when they say, maybe it's better not to marry, he says, surprisingly, that might be true.
Vicki: Yeah, not everyone can accept this word.
Kent: Maybe you shouldn't. In verse 11, he answers them with this.
Vicki: He says, not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given.
Kent: So he's saying, look, marriage is not a commandment. It is a opportunity, but it is not a commandment. You don't have to do that. And not everyone in the Bible was married, were they?
Vicki: The Apostle Paul wasn't. He wasn't. Yeah, yeah. And I'll tell you what, the older you get, the less attractive marriage is.
Nathan: No, that's true. I mean, I can't tell you how many older couples I have counseled. And there's a lot of things, but one of the main things is, yeah, you guys are going to get married and you have incredibly different habits that have solidified in your mind that are going to drive you nuts and you need to work through those things. Right. Because when you get married young, you know, you're kind of young and everything, you know, your brain is still forming. Yeah. You're very pliable.
Vicki: Yeah.
Nathan: And all right, fine, you can squeeze the toothpaste out of the tube that way, no problem. But, but once you, you kind of solidify and you're set in your ways, it's, it's really hard. It is very hard. And it is amazing too though, that in especially evangelical Christianity, singleness is still kind of frowned upon. It is, right. You're almost a second class citizen. I have a few friends that are single, in fact, one that wrote a book on it and she's taken me to task a few times. And so I've been very mindful about the way I communicate, especially from the pulpit on the singles within our congregation. They're not second class citizens. And just because they're not bringing the family and doesn't mean that we don't have opportunities for them to serve and to worship and to be fed either. But, but it is weird how we've kind of shifted to the ideal and almost the only option is you get married and have all these kids in a family. Well, that's not. That's not the biblical norm.
Kent: Yeah, well, it's. It's most common to be married, but it's not mandatory. I mean, he says in verses, in.
Vicki: Verse 12, there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others. And there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom. The one who can accept this should accept it.
Kent: He's saying, no, I'm not married. Not every person has to be married. And there are advantages to being single. Right? Why didn't Paul get married? Why didn't Jesus get married?
Nathan: Yeah, Paul had said to the Corinthians, if you find yourself single for whatever reason, consider not getting married. Because the one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, like your family and how you're going to provide for them. But the one who's single can just concern themselves with the things of God. I have a Roman Catholic priest friend who was saying that technically they know it's theologically not wrong for priests to get married, but by practice they don't. He said, because if you are a priest and you get married and there is a conflict of schedule, there is always a loser. Right. Either your family loses or your church who needs you loses. And I can't argue with that, because as a father and a pastor, that is 100% true. Sometimes your kids need you, and sometimes your church needs you, and somebody's going to lose that battle.
Kent: Yeah, absolutely. But by forcing that, making that decision, Think of all of the problems that have come in the Roman Catholic Church.
Nathan: All the secular statistics, by forcing that, as a rule is. Yeah, I agree.
Kent: That's not why.
Nathan: But there is some wisdom, which is the problem when you make a wisdom call and then make a rule out of it. But the wisdom of it is, yeah, I feel that tension every single day of trying to be a married father and also a pastor.
Kent: So Jesus gives us two stark remain celibate for life or stay married for life. Choose one, but choose wisely. What advice would you give to those who are married listening to this podcast and want to make sure that they don't destroy their marriage by having sex outside of marriage?
Vicki: Well, I think no matter which path you take, make your choice wisely. When you're young and all your friends are getting married, don't be married.
Kent: There's a lot of pressure, isn't It, Yeah.
Vicki: And it's just the next step. You all go through school together, probably you all go to college together. Everybody gets married. You think, oh, it's time to get married. So don't do that. To quote Johnny Cash, don't get married in a fever. Don't think because you're just wildly passionate about somebody that's going to last. It's not every fire goes out. Maybe not all the way out, but it's not going to be like it was. Give thought and you don't know. You can't see down the road, but give thought to what your life is going to be like if you marry that person. I mean, I'm a amazed how many people don't think down the road, amazed at it. Be sure you want to spend your life with this person. Be sure you want to spend your life with this person. And then be sure if you're a believer and you want to serve the Lord, that the two of you together can serve the Lord.
Nathan: Yeah, yeah. I think amen to all of that. I think something else I would add is before you're in a relationship, serious relationship, have a few people in mind that are godly and wise in your life that can observe the relationship, that can observe the person. And you can go to and say, hey, what do you think about my relationship with this person? What do you think about me marrying this person? And get their honest feedback. Right. Because if you're in the heat of the moment, right. Forget it. Like you're, everything's perfect and you ignore all of the issues, but get to know the person. I think put yourself in stressful. If you're going to go towards marriage, put yourself in stressful situations with them. I will. Often with couples who say, we've never had a fight.
Vicki: Have one.
Nathan: Yeah, have one. So the best thing I can tell people is go canoeing. You're in the same canoe or a double person kayak and see how that goes. Right. Because there's nothing more frustrating than going down the river and not being able to steer or no power or too much power on one side. Yeah, it's incredible. I've broken up whole relationships that way. And it's important, though, because now you see how they fight. Because we're all going to fight. We're all going to have disagreements. You know, do they name call, are they mean, do they belittle or, you know, are they just frustrated? Can you. And how do you make up? Right. Those things matter. I'd also say to married and unmarried people, don't get involved in pornography. It is, number one, like it is addictive from the first time you use it, potentially morally. I mean, this is obviously an adultery of the mind, but you are participating in the global slavery of humanity. There's more slavery now than at any point in human history. And not all of it, but a good chunk of that is because of pornography. So even if you're viewing the free stuff, you are the consumer now and you are contributing to human misery and slavery. So get help however you can. There's tons of programs, there's lots of counseling out there. Don't get involved with it and it will warp your soul. We also have brain scans that show it changes your brain chemistry and how you view other people, from viewing them as persons to viewing them as things, objects for your gratification. In real life, you'll start viewing people as objects for your gratification. So don't get involved with it. And if you are involved with it, fight it with everything you can and every resource you can find.
Kent: Good advice. I would also say if you find yourself being tempted by someone outside of marriage, run. Pull a Joseph in the Old Testament. Leave your cloak behind if you have to. Just run a book I would recommend we don't have time to go into this in more detail, but a book I would recommend on adultery is a book called Close Calls, written by Dave Carter. C A R D E R. I had him come to speak to one of my doctoral classes and he showed and told us about how people drift into affairs. And it scared me to death. Was very helpful. He writes, you are in danger of having an affair. Don't believe it. Then your risk is even greater. Dr. Carter has some great advice on how to avoid an affair. Because Jesus is clear in this passage. We must keep the promise we made on our wedding day because only sin or death can end a marriage. One man, one woman for life. That's what Jesus says. And for your sake, for God's sake, don't forget it.
Brian: Anyone who's been married can tell you that while marriage can be wonderful, you share a life with the person you hopefully love the most. Marriage can also be downright hard. The two of you will not always agree on everything. You'll have different wants and needs. If you're hungry or tired, tiny offenses might seem like huge violations. And in time, all the hard things may make you want to end things. That's the time to remember Christ wants us to love our spouse the way he loved the church, sacrificially. Unless there's been marital unfaithfulness. Marriage is for life. I trust that today's discussion of God's Word has been helpful and served as an encouragement to not just be hearers of the Word, but doers together. Let's bring God's Word to life to our lives. This week, the crosstalk Podcast is a production of crosstalk Global, equipping biblical communicators so every culture hears God's voice. To find out more or to support the work of this ministry, please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org. if you want to get involved and learn about crosstalk, come out to our Taste of Crosstalk seminar in Irvine, California, next Friday, February 7th. Click on the link in the show notes to sign up. Or, if you want to help us train the next generation of biblical communicators, all you have to do is click Donate in the show notes and make a donation of any size. You can also support this show by sharing it on your social media and telling your friends. Tune in next Friday as we continue our discussion through the Gospel of Matthew. Be sure to join us.