Why should Christians bother with forgiveness?
Text: Matthew 18:21-35
Hosts:
J. Kent Edwards
Vicki Hitzges
Nathan Norman
Narrator: Brian French
The CrossTalk Podcast is a production of CrossTalk Global, equipping biblical communicators, so every culture hears God’s voice. To find out more, or to support the work of this ministry please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org
Produced by Nathan James Norman/Untold Podcast Production
© 2025 CrossTalk Global
Brian: A fine art dealer is currently selling a digital copy of a prehistoric cave drawing of a wounded bison attacking a man. As you can imagine, the image is both brutal and predictable. Wild animals become more aggressive when injured because they're scared and confused and may think you're trying to do more harm to them and are far more likely to lash out and bite or scratch you than to accept your help. It's not only animals who attack those who injure them. People do it all the time. We do it as well. When someone assaults our reputation or wounds our integrity, feelings of vengeance often emerge. Physical violence can occur when someone wounds someone we love. The desire to attack can emerge with an unfaithful spouse, a business partner being caught stealing money, or when someone deeply wounds your child physically, emotionally, or both. When we or someone we love is hurt, our human nature instantly wants justice. We want revenge. We want to hurt those who hurt us. But is that how Christians should respond? Is that how Jesus responded? Join Vicki Hitchkes, Kent Edwards, and Nathan Norman as they listen, learn, and apply Jesus instructions on how and why we should respond to people who injure our bodies and our character. Welcome to crosstalk, a Christian podcast whose goal is for us to encourage each other to. To not only increase our knowledge of the Bible, but to take the next step beyond information into transformation. Our goal is to bring the Bible to life, into all our lives. I'm Brian French. Today, Dr. Kent Edwards, Vicki Hitskus, and Nathan Norman continue their discussion through the Gospel of Matthew. If you have a Bible handy, turn to Matthew, chapter 18, verses 21 to 35, as we join their discussion.
Kent: In the past few podcast episodes that we've recorded, Jesus has been focusing on sin. In fact, in the first part of Matthew 18, Jesus talked about how we need to guard our behavior around others. Do you remember that, Vicki?
Vicki: Well, I remember they said, if anyone causes one of these little ones, those who believe in me, to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Kent: Well, that's pretty strong.
Vicki: That's pretty strong.
Nathan: Sure is.
Kent: So according to Jesus, we must not do anything that would encourage another person to sin. And last week, we moved on. In Matthew 18, we saw the steps of how God's people should respond when we witness other people's sins. What should we do when someone is sinning? Do you remember the steps, Nathan?
Nathan: Yeah. Step one, if your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault. Just between the two of you. Okay, then step two. But if they will not listen. Take one or two others along so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Kent: Okay? So we want to be fair.
Nathan: Step three, if they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church.
Kent: Okay.
Nathan: And then step four, if they refuse to listen to even the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Kent: So Jesus really wants us to do everything possible to restore a sinning brother or sister in Christ, right?
Nathan: Yes.
Kent: But today, as we move on to verse 21 and following, the question is not how to respond to other people's sins, but how we should respond when someone sins against us. Our personal response when we are the victim of sin. Vicki Nathan, you've spent your lives living in non Christian contexts, and in your experience, what is the standard non Christian response to people who have been attacked by others physically, reputationally, emotionally?
Nathan: Well, unfortunately, I think a lot of Christians respond in non Christian ways often. Right. So I suppose in a work environment, what I've seen a lot of is the background gossip, the slander of other people's characters, and usually there's kind of a general nastiness there, but there can be undermining behavior too, where, okay, they hurt me, I'm gonna hurt them back. They damaged my sale. I'm gonna go mess up one of their sales now a bigger sale.
Vicki: Yeah. If there's some way to sabotage them, I'll sabotage them. Otherwise, I think the primary way is probably gossip saying something untrue because it's harder to sabotage. But if you can, you're gonna see that happen.
Nathan: But I can remember in high school, right, it's better to see sin on display when we're younger. Right. Because I can remember people letting air out of each other's tires and then, oh, you that to me. Now I'm going to slash your tires. Right. So one was very inconvenient. Now I've become destructive, and then it's damaging property to each other. Words can turn into fist fights. Yeah. So you escalate the issue pretty quickly.
Kent: Yeah. So I think the natural human reaction people have when they're treated badly by someone else is to want to strike back. You said sometimes it could be physically. More often I think it's passive aggressively. How can we undermine them without exposing or making ourselves vulnerable to a counter attack? Perhaps, but there are exceptions. I remember Gandhi in India in the early 1900s reading about how he pushed for independence from the British through non violent protest. We won't fight, but we will resist. And as we record this podcast, it's just very close to Martin Luther King Day. It's interesting. He was an ordained Baptist pastor who opposed the racial injustices of his time, but he emphasized a love centered way of thinking, speaking, acting and engaging that leads to personal, cultural and societal transformation. Wow, that's fascinating. Sometimes the best way to respond to injustice is not by striking back. And I think that's what Jesus is calling us to do in this passage. Let's set the Context in verse 21. How does this passage begin?
Vicki: Peter came to Jesus and he asked, lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times.
Kent: Vicki, I'll never forget how your father spoke about this particular text. Your dad, Haddon Robinson, talked about how, really, this is a pretty high standard when you realize that the Pharisees had a standard of how often they had to forgive. And that also was a high standard. The Pharisees said that when someone sinned against you, you had to forgive them three times. It's very rare that I see someone forgive someone who is attacking them, offending them three times in a row. Vicki, you have a. You have a nice car, don't you?
Vicki: I do. I have an Infiniti. I'm proud of that car.
Kent: Yeah. And perhaps if I was visiting, I might, you know, face a difficult time and I'm under stress or something. What if I took my car key and just ran it across the side of your car? Just keyed your car all the way across.
Vicki: Oh, I would forgive you seven times.
Kent: I know you wouldn't. I know you will. You would be annoyed, right?
Vicki: I'd be very annoyed.
Kent: Yeah. Because it's expensive to repair, it's inconvenient, and it was completely unnecessary.
Nathan: Never looks the same.
Kent: There was absolutely.
Vicki: I'd be very annoyed.
Kent: So anyway, it costs money to get it fixed and so on. And even if insurance covers it, it's, ah, it's a pain. So a month later, I happen to be flying through Dallas and I'm feeling bad again and I come over and I key your car a second time. What are you going to do?
Vicki: You're gonna key it a second time?
Kent: A second time. Same thing all over again. I think you're gonna be even more upset.
Nathan: I think she's gonna stop inviting you over.
Vicki: Do that. Yeah, yeah. You're not coming over a third time. I'll guarantee it.
Kent: By a third time.
Nathan: Hide the car. Hide the car by a third time.
Kent: You're calling everyone not, you know, maybe you know, my denomination. And who is this guy? And why? Is he doing it? No.
Nathan: Post it on Facebook.
Kent: I'm not picking on you, Vicki. I'm just saying I would lose it, too. I mean, if someone does this thing over and over and over. The Pharisees said you had to forgive three times. If they did it a fourth time, then you can get him. That was the limit. And Peter's asking Jesus, how often do we have to forgive these people? But he plays it safe, and as your father said, he multiplies it. He doubles it. So this is three to one. And let's throw one more time in just so I won't be caught off guard. Jesus. How about seven times?
Nathan: And he was expecting Jesus to say, whoa, Peter, that's way too many. Like, you're being too gracious, Peter.
Kent: So he's kind of waiting for Jesus to say, let's be more realistic. But Jesus says the opposite.
Vicki: In verse 22, he says, I tell you not seven times, but 77 times.
Kent: Wow, 77 times I get to key your car? No, I'm just. That's high. But you realize if you're following along and someone's following along in their Bible, there's probably a little footnote that says, this could be translated 70 times 7.
Vicki: That's the way I remember it being.
Kent: Translated, which is 490 times. And if we are debating, is it 490 times or 77 times? I think we're missing the entire point. What Jesus is saying is that we forgive limitlessly.
Vicki: If somebody keyed my car. I'm serious. Even four times. How sorry are they?
Kent: I know, but that's what Jesus is saying. It is limitless forgiveness. And I think Peter is sitting back there and said, you can't be serious, Jesus.
Vicki: I am.
Kent: You can't be serious. I mean, how in the world is that possible? There are some people I don't want to forgive. So Jesus tells a story, a story to explain how we can forgive limitlessly. And it's three scenes. Scene one. What happens in scene one, it says.
Vicki: A kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him 10,000 bags or talents of gold was brought to him.
Kent: So that is a huge debt. We don't know that because that's not our common courtesy, Common currency today. But it took a laborer 20 years to earn one talent. 20 years. So basically, his income for life to buy one talent and the annual revenue of the provinces of Judea, Samaria, Galilee, Idumea, and Ionia together paid in a whole year, 800 talents. So the amount, a man who owed him 10,000 bags of gold, or talents of gold. He's basically cleaning up the national treasury. This man must have been an accountant or money. Somehow he had access to the king's money and he basically emptied it. This is not a small accounting error. It's perhaps the greatest robbery in the history of humanity.
Nathan: This is like Ocean's Eleven, you know, the movie. But they got caught.
Kent: But they got caught and this guy got caught. And one day the king realized and obviously he was angry and he brought him in and. Well, what happened to the guy? In verse 25 it says, since he.
Vicki: Was not able to pay, obviously, obviously, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
Kent: Wow. Let's just say this was a bad day, right? I mean, he got caught somehow. He spent the money, he couldn't give it back. I don't know if he gambled or I don't know what he did with it, what he bought, or how he lost it all, but he couldn't just put it back. It was a debt. The money was gone and he received justice. Right?
Nathan: Right.
Kent: You took all this from me and so it is only fair that I take from you. And by the way, how long would it take for this guy to pay back this debt while he is in prison?
Vicki: Well, he can't. It's too big a debt. Whatever he does, he doesn't make that much money or he wouldn't have stolen it. I mean, he's a worker, he's not a ruler. He doesn't have anybody to help him. He's in prison. He didn't have any family to help him. There's no way he can pay this back.
Kent: So it's a lifetime sentence in eternity. In eternity, he couldn't pay it back. And so we're not surprised to read in the verses that follow that the man did the only thing he could. Right?
Vicki: It says at this, the servant fell on his knees before the king and he said, be patient with me, I will pay back everything.
Kent: There is no hope, no possibility. But he's crying out to escape the justice he deserves, and he wants grace. And what is surprising is the king's response to his call for mercy.
Vicki: This is very surprising. It says in verse 27, the servant's master took pity on him. He cancelled the debt and he let him go. He didn't say, pay me back. No, he said, you're free. Go. You're free.
Kent: Your offense is so great it can never be paid back. But because of his pity, he canceled the debt and let him go. What did the servant deserve?
Nathan: Justice. Yeah, you took from me and you squandered it, or wasted it, or lost it, or whatever you did. So you should pay the crime.
Kent: And what did the Master give him?
Vicki: Absolute mercy. Go. Unforgiveness.
Kent: No question. This is a parable, not a historical event. It's a parable. And what is Jesus saying to Peter in the first scene of this story?
Vicki: Well, he's talking to Peter and he's saying, you're the servant. You've got a debt and you can't pay it. And God in his mercy, did not give you what you deserve. But because you beg for forgiveness, God will personally pay the huge price necessary to forgive your debt. Which is what God does for us.
Kent: This is what God does for us. So it begins with an understanding of how enormous a debt, moral debt God has forgiven us of. Then we come to scene two.
Nathan: It says, but when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. Pay back what you owe me, he demanded.
Kent: That's pretty strong, isn't it?
Nathan: Physically assaulting him.
Kent: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not a lot of pity or understanding we don't see in this story. Gee, how come? What's the problem? This is a problem that could be negotiated, unlike the first scene, because the contrast between the first and the second become clear. First of all, because there is less debt. I mean, the debt that was owed that his fellow servant owed him was a single day's wage. That's doable, right?
Vicki: Yep, yep.
Kent: All he would need is what?
Vicki: Some time Saturday?
Kent: Yeah, take some time. I can wait. But he is not willing to wait. He wants it immediately. And I mean, he is owed the debt, but he is harsh choking the guy and a fellow servant.
Nathan: Well, it's incredible because he didn't even tell the guy to start off with, hey, pay me back the money. He starts off the interaction by choking him. He doesn't even give him a chance.
Kent: Yeah. In verse 29, how does a servant respond?
Vicki: The same way he did. His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, be patient with me and I'll pay it back.
Kent: So he's asking for grace, right?
Nathan: Mercy. Yeah, please.
Kent: He's asking for mercy. Did it work?
Vicki: No, it says this guy refused. Instead he went off and he had the man thrown in prison until he could pay the debt. Which if the guy didn't have the money. It seems like he would. But if he didn't have the money, he still can't pay it off, just like he couldn't because he's in prison.
Kent: Right? You see the contrast that Jesus is pointing out here. The king had forgiven the egregious sin of the first servant, but that same servant refused to forgive the debt of his fellow servant, even though the debt was much less. Servant number one refused to offer mercy to his fellow servant and he demanded justice. Now he had that right. But why would you demand it after you've received such mercy that the king had shown him? See the contrast. The king forgave him a lot, but the servant would not forgive a fellow servant, even a small offense. Scene two but now we come to scene three. Tension is rising.
Nathan: It says when the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened. Then the master called the servant in. You wicked servant, he said, I cancelled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you? In anger, his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured until he should pay back all he owed.
Kent: That's strong language.
Nathan: To be tortured. You're not just going to jail to be tortured.
Vicki: And until he should pay back all he owed. And we know he the that's never.
Kent: So it's eternal torture.
Vicki: It's eternal torture.
Kent: And why, why did the king change his mind?
Vicki: Because he wouldn't forgive.
Kent: After he'd been forgiven so much personally, he wouldn't show mercy enough on his fellow servant that he would.
Vicki: He wouldn't forgive his fellow servant a little bit when he'd been forgiven everything.
Nathan: Absolutely well said.
Kent: And this is how Jesus was explaining to Peter how he could learn to forgive limitlessly. And we do that by realizing God has forgiven us limitlessly. And then he concludes the story with What?
Vicki: In verse 35, he says, this is how my Heavenly Father will treat you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart. That's important. Yeah, that's important. Hear this. This is how you will be treated by God unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart. That's scary. Big time language.
Kent: It is.
Vicki: Be forgiving because you've been forgiven. Or else.
Kent: Or else.
Nathan: I don't have hard numbers on this, but this is one of those sermons or text where you often will hear preachers say what Jesus actually meant was right because it's so hard and it's so harsh and it's so convicting. It is really hard to declare this. It really is.
Vicki: Yeah. But that's not what he's saying. He's saying, yeah, you need to forgive as you've been forgiven or there's hell to pay. And that's what he's saying.
Nathan: Yep.
Kent: How do we know we have forgiven someone? I remember Vicki, once again, your dad had Robinson use this image, and I've never forgotten it. He said, well, if I ask you to loan me $20 so I can go for lunch, you say, yeah, A couple days later, I pay you back the $20 that you loan me, you may forget all about that debt. And even if someone reminded you, you'd say, well, who cares? There's no problem there. We're not emotionally involved in that transaction because the debt was repaid. But if you think back at something, at an event in your life, and every time you think of it, you get angry and you haven't forgiven, the forgiveness is not there. Forgiveness is where we keep no record of wrongs. And that's been a. That image that your father gave me has been helpful to know, have I genuinely forgiven someone, or has it just been buried down in my heart and tried to be ignored? Forgiveness is not easy, is it?
Vicki: It's not easy. And I don't think it happens immediately.
Kent: No.
Nathan: Yeah. To kind of jump on what you were saying. Ken, I know years ago, I came across the reality that in Hebrew scriptures you'll often hear the phrase the heart of hearts. Right. Because in the Hebrew mind, the heart, which is the seat of who you are, it's not just emotions. It's the core of who you are. They would it as having layers. And so on an outer layer, I might be able to say, you know what? I forgive them. Right. And then a few days later, it comes up like you were saying, and it's in my mind, and I'm like, oh, I'm really angry about that. I'm like, whoa, whoa. Where did that come from? I thought I forgave that because I think it has to work through some. Depending on how deep the hurt is, it's got to work through some of those layers, which is why we as human beings can often have competing desires. Well, I want to. I want to follow the Lord, but I also want to do these illicit drugs because there's competing layers of the heart that we have to work through our desires. And the same is true for forgiveness. There have been people who have deeply wounded me over the years, and where I finally get to the point where I'm like, all right, God, I forgive them. And then I'm like, okay, no, I genuinely forgive them. I want them to have a good, good life. And then somewhere out of the blue, like, I didn't realize how deep the wound was because something happens and it triggers me, and I'm like, whoa, that awful person. And I got to rework through it again. I think it's a bit sometimes, depending on how deep the wound is, it's got to be that process.
Kent: Yeah. We don't see total forgiveness often in the world. One nation remembers how another nation treated them, and they can't wait to get back at them. You have people in the business world who realize they've been cheated or taken advantage of, and they want to make things right. And to be honest, what they're looking for is justice. They have been offended, they have been hurt, and justice needs to take place. But for Christians, we need to be content with what God will do and how God will establish justice. We'll leave it in his hands because we have been forgiven so much to know the depth of our own iniquity and how great has been the forgiveness he has given to us. God has given to us. We're never more godlike than when we extend that forgiveness to others. I think when we treat people with mercy they don't deserve, we radiate Christ to them. And I never want to forget how Jesus ends his lesson on prayer in Matthew 6. Do you remember that every time we.
Vicki: Pray, he said, forgive us our debts as we also have forgiven our debtors. Listen to that. Forgive us, God. You forgive me the way I have forgiven others. That made me forgive somebody once because I thought, whoa, whoa, I gotta forgive this person because I want God to forgive me. Forgive us our debts as we have forgiven our debtors. For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you don't forgive others, your Father will not forgive you.
Kent: This is a powerful story. Here. Jesus is telling Peter, the other disciples, and us, it is wicked to take God's grace and refuse to give it to others. If you've been forgiven. If we've been forgiven, we must be forgiving of others.
Brian: Forgiven people are called to be forgiving people. If we have been forgiven, others should see us forgive people. We need to take that seriously because Christ tells us if we refuse to forgive others, God will not forgive us. I trust that today's discussion of God's Word has been helpful and served as an encouragement to not just be hearers of the word, but doers together. Let's bring God's word to life, to our lives. This week, the crosstalk Podcast is a production of crosstalk Global, equipping biblical communicators so every culture hears God's voice. To find out more about this educational nonprofit organization, please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org. we just launched a new cohort in Salina, Kansas, and later this month we're training biblical communicators in Panama and India. Help us empower the next generation of biblical communicators. All you have to do is click Donate in the show notes and make a donation of any size. You can also support this show by by rating it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're enjoying it. Be sure to listen next Friday as we continue our discussion of the Gospel of Matthew. You won't want to miss it.
Kent: Mercy enough on his fellow servant that he would allow him. What am I trying to say?
Vicki: He wouldn't forgive his fellow servant a little bit when he'd been forgiven everything.
Kent: Absolutely.
Nathan: Well said.
Vicki: It's a gift.
Nathan: It's almost like you should go into public speaking. Vicki.
Kent: Yeah, There could be a future there for you.
Vicki: Thank you.