How can we do ministry without a superstar?
Text: Matthew 17:14-23
Hosts:
J. Kent Edwards
Vicki Hitzges
Nathan Norman
Narrator: Brian French
The CrossTalk Podcast is a production of CrossTalk Global, equipping biblical communicators, so every culture hears God’s voice. To find out more, or to support the work of this ministry please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org
Produced by Nathan James Norman/Untold Podcast Production
© 2024 CrossTalk Global
Brian: Everyone loves superstars. CEOs certainly do. The employee who can deliver double or triple the output of peers can single handedly change a business's fortunes and cause the stock price to skyrocket. A promoter who has the charisma and connections to book someone like Taylor Swift, Drake, or Beyonce can make a music festival the event of the year. Athletes like LeBron James, Simone, Biles and Lionel Messi generate huge audiences and revenues from advertisers eager to establish brand associations with new customers. But superstars come with a downside. What will the CEO do when their superstar employee takes another job and the profits plummet? And what happens to the festival if their whiz bang music promoter is caught in a scandal so unseemly that the big music acts won't take their calls? What will happen to the advertising revenue when LeBron, Simone, or Messi retire? Churches face a similar risk. Megachurches can blossom with the mega gifts of a superstar pastor. But what happens to the congregation when their ministry inevitably ends? Will the church be forced to close its doors? If you have ever wondered what will happen to your church when its tremendously gifted leader is gone, you will understand how inadequate the disciples felt when they couldn't do what Jesus did so often and so effortlessly in Matthew, chapter 17, verses 14 to 23. Join Nathan Norman, Vicki Hitskes, and Kent Edwards as they ask the question, was Jesus a Superstar? Welcome to CrossTalk, a Christian podcast whose goal is for us to encourage each other to not only increase our knowledge of the Bible, but to take the next step beyond information into transformation. Our goal is to bring the Bible to life, into all our lives. I'm Brian French. Today, Dr. Kent Edwards, Vicki Hitzkes and Nathan Norman continue their discussion through the Gospel of Matthew. If you have a Bible handy, turn to Matthew, chapter 17, verses 14 to 23, as we join their discussion.
Kent: Vicki, I know that you have a background in broadcasting, and Nathan, I know you've established a reputation in the literary and podcasting fields. In your experience in those fields, have you ever known the kind of person that Brian described? Have you ever come across a superstar overachiever?
Vicki: Oh, I've been around a lot of overachievers. Oh, I would say my dad was an overachiever and my husband was an overachiever. And then because I was in the news, I met all kinds of celebrities going through town.
Kent: So what? What did they do that overachieved?
Vicki: Well, I was thinking the other day, these are going to be some old names, but I was thinking about Carol Channing. The other day, huge star back in the day. And Mitzi Gaynor, she had her legs back when a million dollars was a lot of money. She had her legs insured for a million dollars.
Nathan: Wow.
Vicki: It'd be like half a million now. Excuse me, half a billion now. Steven Spielberg came through town. Oh, Ron Howard, big, big guy. Used to be a big guy, now he's an old guy. But the Arnold Schwarzenegger, just all kinds of people came through Dallas and they were promoting, pitching, stuff like that. And I didn't ever feel like I was standing in their sh. Shadow. So much is. There's just all kinds of ways to make money. But if you're at the top of your game, people are so amazed and impressed by you, Nathan.
Nathan: Yeah, especially within the church world. Right. It's a weird thing, the superstardom in the church world, but it's definitely there. And some people have superstardom and they're pretty arrogant about it and it's hard to stand in their shadows. Others, they're truly godly men and women and they have gifting and they are close to the Lord and you compare yourself to them because you can't help it. And you're just like, oh, okay, I'm in the peewee league. I'm the kindergartner trying to figure out how soccer works. And you know they're over here going into the World cup, right? Yeah, it just. I could never do what they do.
Kent: I think it's pretty common when our life begins to intersect with someone who is a genuine superstar. They're Arnold Schwarzenegger, they are a famous singer, maybe with million dollar legs. It's easy to look at ourselves and say, my legs don't look like a million bucks. I work out and I will never look like Schwarzenegger. It's easy to feel diminished, sometimes even insignificant when we stand next to people who are genuine superstars. If that's ever been your experience, then you'll understand how the disciples felt. And Matthew 17, in that opening paragraph, that opening scene of Matthew 17, Boy, the disciples really saw Jesus in a different light, didn't they?
Vicki: It says Jesus took with him Peter, James and John, the brother of James, and led them up to a high mountain by themselves. And there he was, transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun and his clothes became as white as the light. And just then, Moses and Elijah appeared before them talking with Jesus. A bright cloud covered them and a voice from the cloud said, this is my son whom I love. With him I am well pleased. Listen to him.
Kent: Wow, that's pretty impressive, wouldn't you say?
Vicki: That's darn impressive. Yeah. Yeah.
Kent: When God the Father shouts, this is my son. That's. That's pretty good. When you're chatting with Moses and Elijah and glowing in the process, imagine you're the disciples. They're wearing dirty clothes, don't have any specific background. They're certainly not glowing. Or talk regularly to the heroes of the past. Jesus certainly seems to occupy super status, doesn't he?
Vicki: Yeah. You know, they paid attention to that. And don't, you know, like, they talked about the. The shepherds in the. I want to call it the Christmas scene. They were sore, afraid, don't you think?
Kent: And if that's what happened with the angels, imagine seeing Jesus transformed right before their eyes.
Vicki: Wow.
Kent: Talk about superstar. But the mood shifts immediately after those words. In that scene, we read a ministry report that would have thoroughly embarrassed, humiliated the disciples. Look what we read in verses 14 and 15.
Vicki: It says, when they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. Lord, have mercy on my son. He said. He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him.
Kent: Imagine you're the disciples standing there and this guy comes and lets everybody know and lets Jesus know that they had failed. How do you think they would feel?
Vicki: Well, they obviously tried.
Kent: Yeah.
Vicki: And they couldn't do it. Yeah.
Nathan: We have all experienced this. Right. When you're at your job and then someone goes to your boss about the bad job that you did. I worked at a welding supply store and I can remember clients and customers going to the regional manager saying, oh, you messed this up. I can remember working as a youth pastor and people not even talking to me and going directly to the senior pastor about something that I had done or they perceived that I had done. That is a very hard thing when someone goes to your boss and says, yeah, your employee, they kind of suck.
Kent: And publicly. Yeah, this is like somebody doing a terrible review of your work on the Internet.
Nathan: Oh, yeah, this is a one star review. That's a good point, Kent. Yeah. They left a one star Yelp review of his disciples with some derogatory comments.
Kent: I wasted three hours with these stupid disciples, did whatever they did, and none of it worked. And, you know, why were they even chosen in the first place? And how do we expect the gentle Jesus who, you know, feels for the lost sheep and goes to find them and cares about the sinners and is willing to have dinner with them. How do we expect Jesus to respond to his disciples in this moment of great embarrassment?
Vicki: Well, you think he's going to be a gracious, kind boss and shore them up and say, you know, you tried.
Kent: Right.
Vicki: We all have bad days.
Kent: I appreciate your efforts.
Vicki: This is not an easy situation. Let me show you how to do it next time you'll be able to.
Kent: Right? Right. That's how I assume Jesus would respond to these disciples, but he sure doesn't. Nathan, what does he say in verses 17 and 18?
Nathan: You unbelieving in perverse generation, you perverts like, oh, my word, Jesus, why you have to bring that up?
Vicki: And he's doing this in front of everybody, too.
Kent: Yes. It's public.
Vicki: It's not. Correct. In private.
Kent: No. Do you think the Yelp review was bad?
Nathan: Well, so Jesus, the employer is responding to the Yelp review, and he says, I am so sorry. My disciple, Nathaniel, right? He really screw up here, and let me show you why he screwed up.
Kent: And then he goes on to talk about his personal reflection on this.
Nathan: He says, how long should I stay with you?
Kent: Which means what?
Nathan: He says, how long should I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me.
Kent: He's frustrated with them, Right. He's upset, for crying out loud. After all this time, what are we still doing with this? And Jesus comes in verse 18, and what happens?
Vicki: It gets worse. It says, he rebuked the demon and it came out of the boy. And he was healed at that moment.
Kent: At that moment. So this was not a long process that Jesus had to go through, right?
Nathan: Right.
Vicki: Nope.
Kent: They went through this long process. The disciples went through this long period. Jesus comes and it's done instantly. It's interesting. The word unbelieving literally means causing people to lose trust. That's what their actions, the failure of the disciples was doing. When he says unbelieving and perverse, that word means to cause someone to depart from correct behavior and engage in serious wrongdoing that was leading people astray. Wow. They are causing people to lose trust in Jesus, and their failure was leading people astray. Those are harsh, harsh words. I mean, how would you feel if you were one of those failed disciples?
Vicki: Right now I feel two things that I would feel if I were them. I would feel angry and shame. Those two things just neck and neck. Because I think I tried. I did what you told me to do. I tried. I did my best. And then I'd be ashamed because I'd be in front of all those other people. I tried. I did my best.
Nathan: Right. And then you publicly humiliated me now.
Vicki: And then. Yeah. Now you're kicking me. Thanks.
Nathan: I already feel bad. I don't need to feel worse.
Kent: So Jesus is the superstar here, right? I mean, no question.
Nathan: Absolutely.
Kent: He knocks it out of the park.
Nathan: Don't settle for his underlings. Go for the big guy, right?
Kent: And the disciples.
Nathan: It's like when the rest of us are teaching with Kent, and then they find out, oh, oh, Nathan is going to evaluate my sermon, not Kent. What? I wanted to have a good sermon. I wasn't looking for the minor leagues here.
Kent: Well, thank you for that embarrassing insight. I appreciate it.
Nathan: Absolutely. You asked that at the beginning of this, so. Just been waiting for the right opportunity.
Kent: I mean, not only did he heal this kid instantly from the demon, but he was just on the mountain of transfiguration, glowing, chatting with Moses and Elijah. I mean, Jesus, superstar all the time. Obviously, the disciples would be saying, you are God and we obviously are not God. We can't do miracles like you, because we are not God. In the same way that we cannot play basketball like LeBron James or do gymnastics like Simone Biles or football like Lionel Messi. Jesus, we're tempted to say, you have unrealistic expectations of us. You are wrong to expect ordinary people like us to do the extraordinary miracles that you do. This is unfair. I think they would have thought something like that. I certainly would have. But Jesus doesn't cut the disciples any slack, does he?
Vicki: Which is surprising, because he knows them. I mean, I would think, you know me, you know, I can't do this if that's the way he came after me. And, you know, I tried. Anyway, the disciples came to Jesus in private, it says, and asked.
Kent: And by the way, just why did they come in private?
Vicki: Because you don't want to take him on in front of everybody else and have him slap you down again, right?
Kent: They're scared.
Vicki: But they want to know, because they did try, right? Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, why couldn't we drive it out? And he replied, this didn't get any better. And then he replied, because you have so little faith, truly. I tell you, if you have the faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, move from here to there, and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.
Kent: How could you be tempted to respond.
Vicki: I got a problem with this. But I have a friend that has a bracelet. And on the bracelet is this little round magnifying ball. And inside this little bitty ball, there's a mustard seed And I don't know that you could see that seed if it weren't inside this magnifying ball. A little mustard seed is like a flick. It's tiny. And Jesus is saying, if you have that much faith, you can say to that mountain, move it. And the mountain's gonna go. And Jesus is saying, you don't have that much faith.
Kent: Yeah. And if you did have faith that is smaller than a grain of rice.
Vicki: Oh, way smaller.
Kent: Way smaller.
Vicki: Way smaller.
Kent: Then they can and should be advancing God's kingdom. They were failing not to have the simple faith they needed to do what Jesus did. Wow. Let's back up a bit. We need to understand the role of faith in Jesus ministry. There's no question that, as we saw in the transfiguration, Jesus was fully God, right?
Vicki: No question.
Kent: No question. I mean, Paul says in Colossians one that he is, what, the image of.
Nathan: The invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created. Things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible. Whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities, all things have been created through him and for him.
Kent: So let us have no misunderstanding. Jesus Christ is God in that sense, superstar, like more than that. Right? But yet we also read in Philippians chapter 2 that when Jesus chose to become a man, he really was a human.
Vicki: This is Jesus Christ, who, being in the very nature, God did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage. Rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant. Being made in human likeness and being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross.
Kent: So when Jesus came in the flesh, he kept his moral attributes, his love, his mercy, forgiveness, and so on. But he laid aside his divine power. He got hungry, like everyone did. He got cold when he fell, he bruised, he got tired, frustrated. Jesus was genuinely human. If he wasn't, he couldn't have died for us. So how could Jesus, who laid aside his godly powers, still do extraordinary miracles? That's the question.
Vicki: He didn't lay aside his godly powers. He was 100% God. He was 100% man. True.
Nathan: Yes. He is fully God and fully man.
Kent: Yes.
Nathan: But according to Philippians 2 and elsewhere, is he let me back up by miracle. Yes, he is fully. He has all those divine attributes. But the best metaphor I've heard for this is, it's like a three legged race. If you take the fastest person in the world and you know, the Olympic gold medal runner and you put him in a three legged race with a fat, obese, asthmatic ten year old, right?
Vicki: Yeah.
Nathan: The runner still has all the attributes of being the fastest runner, but he has now limited himself to as fast as the 10 year old can go. He still has all those attributes, but he has limited himself while he is in this three legged race. So when the second person of the Trinity took on human flesh, he willingly humbled himself, humiliated himself, limited himself to the physical, spiritual attributes of a human being until his glorification.
Kent: Yeah. So then how could he do miracles if he has the moral attributes of God, but he chose to limit himself and he did in terms of his power. Well, I think we see that earlier in Matthew, Matthew chapter three, we read that he came to John the Baptist. Remember that?
Vicki: It says as soon as Jesus was baptized, heaven was opened and John saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.
Kent: So no, I think Jesus did miracles, his miracles in the power of God, because the Holy Spirit was upon him. He utilized the power of the Holy Spirit and he did that to advance the kingdom of God. He did that in the miracle we just read about when the disciples failed. He could do that. And he did that because he had faith larger than a grain of mustard seed and was able to do extraordinary things because of God's work, the Holy Spirit's work within him. And he wants his disciples to follow his lead. He's saying to them, the reason he's mad at them is because they have access to the same Holy Spirit and they need to be utilizing what they have. In fact, it's critical that they do so. Why? Well, look at how Jesus continues this conversation in verse 22 and following.
Vicki: It says, when they came together in Galilee, he said to them, the Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men. They will kill him and on the third day he will be raised to life. And the disciples were filled with grief?
Kent: Yeah. Why were they filled with grief?
Vicki: They don't want to lose him.
Kent: Right. Why? Because he's the superstar. Right?
Vicki: Yeah.
Kent: Yeah. And Jesus is saying to them, here, guess what? I'm going to leave and you can do what I have done. If only you have the faith of a mustard seed, you could move mountains.
Vicki: Yeah, but don't they have a problem with that? Because they thought they could do it, so they did have faith.
Kent: Well, Jesus says they didn't.
Nathan: Half a mustard seed worth.
Vicki: I guess so, no.
Kent: Maybe they were relying on technique. Maybe they were trying to memorize the words that Jesus had said and thought that that's how you could cast out a demon. I don't know what they did, but Jesus is clear that they did not have the faith that they needed to cast him out.
Nathan: I don't know what they were doing, but I know for myself. There is a point where you're doing ministry for the Lord and you're relying on him for strength. And then things start happening and it's really great, and things are going and rolling and God is moving. And then there's usually a point where I'll get cocky, and I'm like, man, what a great leader I am, you know?
Vicki: You're so cool, Nathan.
Nathan: I'm so amazing. I'm great. I'm so awesome. And then, you know, God has to do something to, like, you know, smack me down a couple pegs to remind me, apart from me, you can do nothing. And so I imagine if I were the disciples, we've already done some ministry. We have been casting out demons. Wow. Isn't that amazing? They have these exorcistic rites that took months in Judaism already, and they were somewhat effective, but it took often months, if not years. And here we're casting them out. Oh, it's great. And now I'm just like, man, I am awesome. I am God's dude right now. And they can't do it because now they've all of a sudden subtly shifted from apart from Jesus. I can do nothing. And I gotta rely on you, God, I don't know what I'm doing. You face a demoniac for the first time. You're like, oh, God, help me, please. But then the 37th time, you're over here, like, psh, I got this. No, you don't. It's not you. It's not about you. It never was about you. And it's not your power. It's God's power. So I'm not saying that necessarily is what the text is saying the disciples did, but I'm saying if I was the disciple, that would definitely be my issue. I'd be like, yeah, I got this. I got this. I'm the man. And I'm like, oh, why couldn't I do this? This is why I get the one star Yelp reviews.
Kent: Well, I am blown away when Jesus tells these disciples, truly, I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, nothing will be impossible for you. You can do what I have done in the power of the Holy Spirit, because that's how I did it. I'm not the superstar in the sense that only I can make the kingdom of God grow. No, you can be the superstars. Everyone can be a superstar. Every Christian can draw upon the power of the Holy Spirit. And if we only have faith of a mustard seed, we can accomplish immense things to build his kingdom. I don't think God really uses superstars. I think he empowers ordinary people to do extraordinary things. And he wanted to do that through his disciples. And we will see in the Book of Acts that that's exactly what happened. All too often we do ministry like the disciples did, ministry relying on our own abilities, on our own strengths, our own training, and trying to accomplish God's work in our own power. Jesus said, don't do that. I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, nothing will be impossible. I think we need to understand that we have the power of God to draw on, to empower us, to enable us to do what we could never believe possible. God's kingdom is great and it is coming, and we are to play a very large role in its coming. God doesn't use just superstars. He empowers ordinary people like you and I to do extraordinary things for Him. Let's be bold. Let's rely on his power and set out to accomplish great things for him and his name.
Brian: How can we mere mortals effectively do God's work while Christ is gone? Better question can we do Christ's work while he is gone? We can if we have faith and realize we can't accomplish God's work on our own. God's work can only be done in God's strength. I trust that today's discussion of God's Word has been helpful and served as an encouragement to not just be hearers of the Word, but doers Together, let's bring God's Word to life, to our lives this week. The crosstalk Podcast is a production of crosstalk Global, equipping biblical communicators so every culture hears God's voice. To find out more about this educational nonprofit organization, please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org. we have a new cohort beginning in Salina, Kansas in 2025. If you want to be part of this revolutionary educational experience, check the Show Notes for more information. Students can participate in the program to receive biblical communication skills, and there's also an option to earn an MA Degree in Biblical Communication. You can also help support this show by rating it on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're enjoying it. Be sure to listen next Friday as we continue our discussion of the Gospel of Matthew. You won't want to miss it.
Nathan: Okay. Episode 225 Jesus Christ Superstar. There's a question mark there. Someone like Taylor Swift. I know what you meant by that book. Someone like Taylor Swift. Drake. I don't believe you know who that is. Or Beyonce.
Kent: I looked it up.
Vicki: You didn't know who Drake was?
Kent: I've heard the name, but I don't listen to any of. That's not mine. I looked it up.
Nathan: Thank you for your honesty. We're less cool than we pretend to be, guys, okay?