Why listen to Jesus?
Text: Matthew 13:24-52
Hosts:
J. Kent Edwards
Vicki Hitzges
Nathan Norman
Narrator: Brian French
The CrossTalk Podcast is a production of CrossTalk Global, equipping biblical communicators, so every culture hears God’s voice. To find out more, or to support the work of this ministry please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org
Produced by Nathan James Norman/Untold Podcast Production
© 2024 CrossTalk Global
Brian: Listening is often something we take for granted. It's not unusual to hear people's words without genuinely listening. This happens for a lot of reasons. Sometimes it's because we are wrapped up in our own thoughts or being distracted by something happening around us, or because what this speaker is saying conflicts with our own opinion on the topic and we are busy formulating a response. Hearing is not listening. It requires a commitment to focus exclusively on the person speaking, considering and often double checking with the speaker what they are communicating, learning why they are communicating it, and understanding the real life difference the speaker intends to make in the listener. Genuinely listening to another person is hard work. Listening is exhausting. Thats why we dont listen to everyone with equal effort. No, we choose who we will listen to based on the depth of our relationship and the authority they command. Thats why you ignore the telemarketers when your phone rings, but pick up when your parents or your bosses call. Your relationship and their authority require you to listen to them. But is there someone else we should be giving our full attention to? Someone else whose words demand to be heard and heeded? Join Vicky Hitskiss, Kent Edwards and Nathan Norman as they sort through some of Jesus many parables in Matthew chapter 13 to discover the answer by asking, who are you listening to? Welcome to Crosstalk, a christian podcast whose goal is for us to encourage each other to not only increase our knowledge of the Bible, but to take the next step beyond information into transformation. Our goal is to bring the Bible to life, into all our lives. I'm Brian French. Today, doctor Kent Edwards, Vicki Hitzkis and Nathan Norman continue their discussion through the gospel of Matthew. If you have a Bible handy, turn to Matthew chapter 13, verses 25 to 52 as we join their discussion.
Kent: Vicki, Nathan, can you think of three people, living or dead, whose words you would take so seriously that they could change the trajectory of your life?
Vicki: I listened to my parents and they did change it. I was dating a guy and oh I love that guy. And my mother did not feel the same way I did. And we had a conversation one day and that was the end of him. And anything my dad said, pretty much. He wasn't one to meddle. He had an amazing way to just give his opinion. But he never meddled. He'd never check back and say, did you do what? I said? Never. He'd just give me his opinion. But I valued it so much. I would do necessarily what he said. I can't think of a third person, but I'm sure there is a third person.
Nathan: Yeah, certainly my parents, and they're both living, and it's a blessing to be able to bounce things off of them and have their voice in my life. I think a pastor I grew up with, Pastor Bruce Baker, he's still with us in his nineties, just celebrated his 70th wedding anniversary. And pretty much whatever he would say, I would go along with. That's how much I value him. If there was someone who embodied the love of God for people that I've met personally, it would be Bruce Baker. And so his default is love in Christ. And he's such a gentle but passionate spirit about him. I have and would follow through with him with whatever advice he would give.
Vicki: I can think of a third person. I'm not proud of this, but when I was a kid, I think of my youth group. Not youth group at church, just the kids I ran around with and the way I dress, the way I put on makeup. Oh, my golly, I look back on that now and how my mother dealt with that. I don't know, the length of skirts I wore, what I wanted to be when I grew up, just all kinds of things. And if it was important to them, it was super important to me. And now when I see those kids, those kids on Medicare, I think I would no more listen to them than diddly squat. But, boy, they were important at one time in my life.
Kent: Yeah, I think of pastor Church when I was a teenager. No, he's not famous in any way. Mel Shereski. That man was not the greatest preacher, but he lived what he taught.
Nathan: Amen.
Kent: He was so helpful in guiding. If he said something because of who he was, I paid attention when he said, are you willing to commit your life to the Lord to do whatever he asks you to do? And if you are willing, I want you to write it in the front of your bible. I wrote it. I got a Bible downstairs. Here am I, Lord, send me.
Vicki: What did he do that I have never heard a boring preacher, that I would do that in my bible. I'm serious. How did you see that?
Kent: Because he so cared about people. In all of my life growing up, I never had a. We never had a pastoral visit from anybody. But when I was started to enter the church, he said, hey, could I come and see your parents? And I stopped and said, you mean come to our house? And he did. He cared. When I talked to him about perhaps switching schools to the denominational schools so that I would be properly understand the denomination and meet people who I'd be working with for life, he said, I'll help you do that. I said, I've tried to apply to that school, and they wouldn't take any of my credits. I can't afford to redo all my education. And he said, come on in if you're willing to go, I'll talk to the registrar. And I came in after school one day, and I sat in his office while he talked to the registrar of the denominational school. And he talked to them, and he said, you better let this guy in. He had a course in Genesis. Yes, but it's not the pentateuch. I don't care. It's good enough. Let him in. And he went through, and I got full credit for all my courses. And he hung up the phone and he said, so are you going? And I said, yes, I'm going.
Nathan: Wow.
Kent: I mean, he just. He changed the trajectory. He stood up one day, and that church that I was in, he had replanted it from a dying downtown situation to the suburbs where I lived. And it grew from about 50 to 500 in about five years just because he loved people. He loved people. He wasn't the greatest communicator, but what he said was authentic, right? It came from his heart. And he stood up one day and said, I'm leaving. And we all thought, why would you leave? Everybody loves you. The church has been growing. And he said, because God has made me a church planter, and that's what I do. And I've replanted this church, but I can't take you any further. You need to go find someone else who could take you further. And he gave up that ministry to go plant a church in the western part of Canada. And when he finished that, he planted another one. And finally he retired. And guess what he did during retirement?
Vicki: Loved people, I'm sure, but what?
Kent: And planted another church.
Vicki: Really?
Kent: So he was kind of like a John the Baptist guy, you know, he must increase, I must decrease. I'm not in this for me. I'm in this for kingdom reasons. And I have never forgotten that. And that has molded my life in my ministry.
Vicki: Anyway, that's a beautiful story.
Kent: And no one knows his name. And I'm, you know, but that is. But the mark he made on me, and I know many others, never forgotten, just became a role model. No, there are people in our lives that we pay real close attention to. We have confidence in them, and we allow their words to change the trajectory of our life. Jesus told his disciples that his words had to have the same emphasis last week when in our podcast, we looked at Matthew began our look at Matthew chapter 13. He made that very clear in verse 18 and 19. Look at what he said.
Vicki: He says, listen then, to what the parable of the sower means. When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path.
Kent: We saw last week, that to properly understand something is to fully appreciate its significance and to act on it, to treat what you heard with the seriousness it deserves. If your doctor tells you to lose weight or you will die, if you understand what he has just said, you better start exercising more and eating less. If you're driving on a mountain road and the sign says, slow down, hairpin turn, if you understand its significance, you either hit the brakes or fall to your death. The tragedy was, as Jesus pointed out, three of the four soils in his parable. Three out of four of the people hearing his teaching were not taking it seriously. They didn't understand its significance. Three to four abandoned his teaching. I mean, in verse 23, he said, but the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop yielding 160 or 30 times what was sown.
Vicki: Oh, don't ask this question. Because. Because that isn't what you said last week. Last week it wasn't about hearing and understanding it. Last week it was about him speaking in parables.
Kent: Yes, but last week we said that he was speaking specifically to the disciples regarding how this truth would affect their ministry. And I'm going to say that here he's turning his attention to the crowds. So all the parables at the end of chapter 13 are addressed not to the disciples and how they should shape their ministry.
Vicki: Do you think that of the people that go to church and claim to be saved and believe that they are believers? I'll up that. Let's say the people that go to seminary yield a crop of 100 or 60 or even 30 times what's sown. I don't think most christians yield a crop like that.
Nathan: Well, I guess it's an issue of time, right? Is it immediate, or is it over the course of a point of time.
Vicki: I've had a lot of people get saved because of me. It isn't 100 people, it isn't 60, it isn't 30 people. That's a lot of people.
Nathan: But imagine the impact that each of those individual people have with a changed life trajectory.
Kent: Anyway, my point here is that three out of four people, it is parable of the soils did not, over their life, take Jesus teaching seriously. They began. They pushed it aside and began to operate on their own wits rather than listening and understanding the significance and applying it to their own life. Nikki Nathan, do you think that that's true today?
Nathan: I don't know. I wouldn't want to put a hard and fast number on it. But I do think there is a significant, significant number of people who attend church, claim Christ or don't attend church, and still claim that they're christians that fail to live up to the teachings of Jesus. And when it's pointed out that they're not double down on whatever sinful or shameful behavior they're doing, and don't exemplify the love of Christ, the disdain for sin that Jesus had, the life of Christ, and the hope that he has. Yeah, I think there's a significant amount of believers who do not have spiritual fruit.
Kent: Yeah, I think a lot of people hear God's word, but choose not to act on it, do not take it seriously. And I think that's Jesus point, and I think that is true today. I mean, just for an example from our home context, I found it interesting to read Dallas, Texas, which was once declared by Christianity today as the new capital of evangelicalism. Well, one of their local radio stations has a list on their website listing 17 pastors involved in moral controversies this year. This year, five of which involve criminal charges.
Nathan: Wow.
Kent: I mean, that is astonishing when you think of it. And Barna research says that it's not just a Dallas issue. 42% of people, I'm assuming in America with no faith say hypocrisy of religious people causes them to doubt christian beliefs. 42% of the world takes a look at how christians have decided to apply God's word to their life and say, yeah, not interested. They don't see a link between what people have, christians have heard from God and how they have chosen to live their life. In the first half of chapter 13, Jesus was giving his disciples private strategic ministry advice. But in the second half, Jesus is talking to a different audience. The audience described in chapter 13, verse.
Vicki: One, it says, jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat while all the people stood on the shore. And then he told them many things in parables.
Kent: And the parables he told to the crowd who enjoyed listening to his teaching were as strong as they were clear. I mean, listen to what Jesus said in verse 43.
Nathan: The righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.
Kent: The righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their father. Nathan, what is it mean to be righteous?
Nathan: Well, it's right living. It's living in accordance to what God desires. Holiness. Right. So God is good. His goodness emanates from the core of who he is in his character. And so the more we walk with Christ, the more we become like Christ. And the more the fundamental goodness of Christ kind of emanates out of us almost naturally.
Kent: Right? Right. And the benefits of being those kind of people, people who hear, understand and obey Jesus words. Wow. And all the parables that Jesus shares in this chapter, and there's many, he points out the benefits. And he begins in verse 44, doesn't he?
Vicki: He says, the kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again. And then in his joy, went and sold all that he had and bought that field again. The kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and he bought it.
Kent: I love these parables. I love them because they concretize truth. They show us in real time what the truth that Jesus wants us to know. And here he's saying, a life of righteousness is worth more than all the money in the world. Why? Because the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their father. And by the way, what is this kingdom like?
Nathan: It says, the kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed which a man took and planted in his field. Though it is the smallest of all seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree so that the birds come and perch in its branches.
Kent: That tiny little mustard seed is smaller than a grain of rice in real life, but it can grow to over 20ft tall. I don't know how big your gardens are, but if I had a plant that was 20ft tall, that would dominate the garden. I mean, its shade would cover it from one end to the other. And that's what Jesus says his kingdom is like. No, you're going to be part of a kingdom and it is going to. It's going to start small and insignificant, but it is going to dominate the entire world. Its influence is going to affect every nation and every person. Thats the gardening metaphor. But if you prefer a baking metaphor, Jesus says essentially the same thing in the one that follows in verse 33.
Vicki: It says, the kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into about 60 pounds of flour until it worked all through the dough.
Kent: How much? How much flour?
Vicki: That's a lot of flour. 60 pounds of flour.
Kent: That's not one loaf. No. If you got 60 pounds, you could probably feed an army. And that's what he's saying. We may be small and insignificant like a little bit of yeast, but it's going to have a massive impact on the world as a whole. And that's what you get to be part of. But as positive as Jesus is speaking here, his strongest words are reserved for those who ignore his calls for righteousness, who don't take his word seriously. The majority of his words are addressed to the three quarters of the people who decide not to live in accordance with what God desires and their eternal fate is much different. In verse 24 and following, he says.
Nathan: It says, the kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. The owner's servants came to him and said, sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did these weeds come from? An enemy did this, he replied. The servants asked him, do you want us to go and pull them up? No, he answered, first collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned. Then gather the wheat and bring it to my barn.
Kent: So Vicki, when the disciples asked Jesus to explain this weeds parable, what did he say?
Vicki: Well, he goes on and he said, the one who sowed the good seed is the son of man. The field is the world and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age and the harvesters are angels. As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The son of man will send out his angels and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the burning furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, and then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.
Kent: Those are, those are strong words, aren't they?
Vicki: They are. They're scary words.
Kent: Yeah. At the end of time, the son of man will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. Holiness matters. If we choose not to live righteously. We choose not to live in accordance with what God desires. Our eternal fate will be an eternity of weeping over that decision. That's tragic. That's scary. And what concerns me, at least in my context, part of the world I live, I don't hear preachers calling for repentance in holiness and making it clear that if we choose to not take Jesus words seriously, there will be eternal consequences. I mean, is that true of your context? Is that what you're experiencing?
Vicki: I would say most. I would say almost all of the emphasis is on grace.
Kent: Yeah.
Vicki: God, Jesus has done it all, has done it all. But James is very clear that if a saving. My dad puts it this way, a saving faith is a changing faith. And if you are really saved, if you are really changed, you will want to do right. And you will do right.
Nathan: I find it difficult preaching through the text, which is what I do. I will pick a book and I preach through it. And whenever we get to the hell verses or the sin and condemnation verses, I innately know that it's going to be a hard sermon, because that is not what is being communicated in our church culture, in America. Anyways. Right. Now. Now, certainly you can tack and make too much of an emphasis on sin and judgment and not enough on grace, but I don't think that's the general norm. Right. We want to have a positive message and we want to be uplifting, but those, the warnings are there for a purpose, and they're necessary. It's not popular, it's not comfortable, but we need to hear them. Otherwise, we're all just in a plane that's ready to crash, just smiling, singing happy songs, not realizing that there's a coming doom that we need to be prepared for.
Kent: Yeah. We need to hear and understand the enormous consequences that are coming on how we treat God's word, how we apply God's word to our life. I mean, we sing and say, God's grace has done it all, which is true. That's justification. Christ's atoning death on the cross does make our souls as white as snow. So I love the doctrine of justification, but there's also sanctification, what often that's neglected. What is sanctification?
Vicki: Well, sanctify means set apart to do good.
Nathan: Right? It's that process where God is changing us from our old character to take on the character of Christ.
Kent: Yeah. And every book of the Bible calls us to do that. Right? Yes. Paul and his epistles will begin with a wonderful doctrine of Christ and of his saving work for us. But then he calls God's people to action. Therefore be transformed because of this. Therefore let it transform this aspect of your life and the other aspect of your life. And he was constantly showing people how God's word should be sanctifying us. It's the process of growing closer into the image of Christ to be holy as God is holy. I find the emphasis of these parables so opposite to what I frequently hear, that I'm reminded of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, that german theologian, during the second world War, wrote a landmark book called the cost of discipleship. Let's listen to what Dietrich Bonhoeffer says.
Vicki: He said, cheap grace is the deadly enemy of our church. We are fighting today for costly grace. Cheap grace means grace sold on the market like cheap jacks wares. The sacraments, the forgiveness of sin, and the consolations of religion are thrown away at cut prices. Grace is represented as the church's inexhaustible treasury, from which she showers blessings with generous hands, without asking questions or fixing limits. Grace without price. Grace without cost. In such a church, the world finds a cheap covering for its sins. No contrition is required, still less any real desire to be delivered from sin. Costly grace is the treasure hidden in the field. For the sake of it, a man will gladly go and sell all that he has. It is the pearl of great price to buy which the merchant will sell all his goods. It is the kingly rule of Christ, for whose sake a man will pluck out the eye which causes him to stumble. Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies a sinner. Above all, it is costly because it costs God the life of his son. And what has cost God so much cannot be cheap for us.
Kent: Wow. Powerful words, aren't they? To be true to the Bible, to be true to the ministry of Christ, we need to emphasize both grace and holiness. Both need to be present. The question for us today is, who are we listening to? The words of preachers, many of whom unfortunately, fail to live or preach the necessity of holiness? Or will we listen to the words of Jesus, who warns us in this passage?
Nathan: The son of man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.
Kent: May we hear these hard words. May we understand their significance, the eternal consequences of ignoring them. Why should we take Jesus word so seriously that we deal with the sin in our lives? Because if we do, we will enjoy the gift of joining God's glorious, global, eternal kingdom. And if we don't, we'll be torn from God's people like worthless weeds and rotten fish, into the everlasting fire of hell.
Brian: When we hear the word of God, is it important to act on what we hear? You bet. What we do with what we hear will determine whether we enter heaven or whether we get tossed into the everlasting fire of hell. That's the message of Matthew 13. Don't just be hearers of God's word, be doers. I trust that today's discussion of God's word has been helpful and served as an encouragement to not just be hearers of the word, but doers. Together, let's bring God's word to life, to our lives. This week, the Crosstalk podcast is a production of crosstalk global, equipping biblical communicators so every culture hears God's voice. To find out more to support the work of this ministry, please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org. if you want to get involved and learn about Crosstalk, come out to our taste of Crosstalk seminar on October 24 in Norco, California. Or if you want to help us train the next generation of biblical communicators, all you have to do is click donate in the show notes and make a donation of any size. We're getting ready to graduate a group of students in Panama later this month. You can also support this show by sharing it on your social media and telling your friends. Tune in next Friday as we continue our discussion through the gospel of Matthew. Be sure to join us.
Kent: Into the everlasting fire of hell.
Nathan: Happy Halloween, everyone.
Vicki: I have a question about this. So because you're not God, you probably don't know the answer to this, but I'm pretty close.
Kent: I could give it a shot.
Vicki: Okay, so you're a preacher, and then let's say you have, at the end of your career, you have sexual sin. Okay. You're not necessarily going to hell, are you?
Kent: No, I'm not saying that everyone sins. The question is, do we?
Vicki: What marks your life?
Kent: Are we comfortable with that?
Vicki: Okay. And what marks your life? Right?
Kent: Yeah.
Vicki: Okay.
Kent: So, yeah, we are sinners and will continue to be sinners until we're in glory. But if we're comfortable, if we do not resist, if we're saying, I'm fine with that, then that this is what Jesus is warning us about. Take my words seriously. So when the doctor tells you you gotta lose weight or you'll die, you'll take action on that. It doesn't mean you're gonna be.
Vicki: You'll never eat a piece of cake again.
Kent: No, it's nothing. No, but you'll be striving with all of your effort to get.
Vicki: To be healthy.
Kent: Seriously, to be healthy. To take the doctor's words seriously. Okay.
Vicki: Okay. Okay. I like that.
Kent: That's what it's like.
Vicki: Yeah.
Nathan: There's a world of difference between, you know, my friend who is struggling with alcoholism and, you know, ruining his life and fighting and fighting and hating it, right. And not having the power to overcome it, and the young lady who was drunk killed one of my friends, husband's, one of my former students dads. Didn't care about it in the moment. Sobered up, still didn't care about it at her, at her jury trial. Didn't care at her sentencing. Didn't care the only thing she had was the consequences of her actions. Did not care that her alcoholism and recklessness killed a husband, a father, a friend of. Right. There's a world of difference between those two people. One who's saying, like, I can't overcome this, and the one who's just like, yeah, well, you know, guess he should have been more careful driving, you know?
Kent: Yeah, that's what Jesus is saying. There's people who hear God's word and immediately reject it. There's some in the parable of the soil who hear it, but then. And they want to live according to it, but persecution comes. So they say, ah, it's not worth the price. Then there's those who receive the word and say, hey, I'm busy. I got other concerns. I'm just going to neglect it when that happens. And that becomes the pattern of your life. Watch out, there's going to be hell to pay. And that's what Jesus is saying here. You cannot, cannot play soft with sin.
Vicki: Okay, I see that. That makes sense to me.
Kent: Yeah.
Vicki: Okay.
Kent: It scares me to death. Am I really taking. Am I really taking sin that seriously? And it never ends. So for Paul, he said at the end of his life, I am the chief of sinners. Was he really the world's worst sinner? No. But the closer he came to God, the more aware he was of his sin. I think it was your father, Haddon Robinson, that said, the closer we get to God, I the easier it is to see the gravy stain on our tithe. So the more that I gain victory over sin and closer come to him, the more I wear that there's more work to do. We will not be morally, perfectly morally transformed until we're with him in glory. But till that time we strive with all of his power to be a child of God that resembles our heavenly Father.