Why did Jesus preach a "pointless" sermon?
Text: Matthew 13:1-23
Hosts:
J. Kent Edwards
Vicki Hitzges
Nathan Norman
Narrator: Brian French
The CrossTalk Podcast is a production of CrossTalk Global, equipping biblical communicators, so every culture hears God’s voice. To find out more, or to support the work of this ministry please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org
Produced by Nathan James Norman/Untold Podcast Production
© 2024 CrossTalk Global
Brian: Some mysteries seem unsolvable. Take for example, Amelia Earhart, an accomplished pilot who in 1937 wanted to be the first female pilot to circumnavigate the world. Earhart took off from Oakland, California with an able navigator and her reliable twin engined Lockheed electra airplane. But after successfully flying 6500 miles over the open ocean to New guinea, she suddenly disappeared en route to Howland island. What happened? The Mary Celeste was a canadian built merchant vessel discovered adrift and deserted in the Atlantic Ocean in 1872. While the lifeboat was missing, the cargo was intact and the captain and crew's personal belongings were undisturbed. None of those on board were ever seen or heard from again. What happened? And DB Cooper? In 1971, he hijacked a Boeing 727 commercial flight from Portland, Oregon to Seattle, Washington, told a flight attendant he had a bomb, and demanded four parachutes, the equivalent of $2 million in ransom. His requests were granted, and after the passengers were released, he forced the pilot to take off for Mexico City. But 30 minutes after takeoff, he opened the aircrafts rear door, parachuted into the night, and was never seen or heard from again. What happened? As mystifying as these events may be, I find a sermon Jesus preached in Matthew 13 equally mysterious. I dont understand why Jesus preached what could be generously called a less than average sermon to the crowds who came to listen to him. Curious? Then join Nathan Norman, Vicky Hitzges, and Kent Edwards as they try to solve the mystery of one of Jesus strangest sermons. Welcome to Crosstalk, a christian podcast whose goal is for us to encourage each other to not only increase our knowledge of the Bible, but to take the next step beyond information into transformation. Our goal is to bring the Bible to life, into all our lives. I'm Brian French. Today, Doctor Kent Edwards, Vicky Hitzkis, and Nathan Norman continue their discussion through the gospel of Matthew. If you have a Bible handy, turn to Matthew, chapter 13, verses one to 23 as we join their discussion.
Kent: Nathan, Vicki, you are both professional communicators. You regularly stand and effectively communicate to various audiences and for different purposes. So with that credibility, brainstorm with me when your presentation to these groups is effective. What makes those presentations effective?
Vicki: Well, usually I create a need and people think, oh, I want to hear that. I need to hear that. It has humor in it. And as I go along they think, oh, that's good, that's good, that's good. And then I end with a bang.
Kent: What do you mean a bang? You shoot something or Vicki comes flying.
Nathan: Out of a human cannonball.
Kent: Shorten your life span.
Vicki: No but, you know, when it ends well and they're with you and that they burst into applause or they laugh hard and then they just stand up and cheer. That kind of thing.
Kent: It's an emotional conclusion.
Vicki: It's an emotional conclusion. Yeah, yeah.
Kent: Perfect. Yeah, yeah.
Nathan: And I. Along with that, it's tension. I think what makes a good story is good tension. What makes a good sermon or. Or communication moment is tension. You, as Vicki said, you raise that need, and you hold that intention, and everything build towards answering that felt need that you raised in the. In that introduction until finally they want to hear it. I remember, actually, shortly after I learned big idea preaching, I was a youth pastor, and I remember I kept asking the big idea question, but I was not giving the answer. And one of the girls in youth group stood up, and she said, what's the answer? Did I miss it? And I said, no, we're getting there. We're working towards it. She's like, okay. And a little bit. It wasn't a long sermon. It was like 20 minutes, maybe. And a little bit later, right before I was about to give it, she's like, I can't take it anymore. Tell me what the answer is. Tell me.
Vicki: That's a lot of tension.
Kent: Good job there, Nathan. That obviously worked. And I agree with you. The things that you've mentioned in your communication, I want to have in my communication as well. But let's compare our list with the sermon Jesus preached to this crowd in Matthew, chapter 13.
Vicki: I can hardly wait to read it.
Kent: Let's just read it, and we'll come back and talk after it's done.
Vicki: Okay? That same day, Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat. And while all the people stood on the shore, he told them many things in parables, saying, a farmer went out to sow his seed, and as he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came up and ate it. Some fell on rocky places where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly because the soil was shallow. But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop 160 or 30 times what was sown. Whoever has ears, let them hear.
Kent: That's it. That's Jesus entire speech. That's his sermon to this huge crowd. By the way, have you ever spoken to large crowds?
Nathan: Yes, very large crowds.
Vicki: I've spoken to 10,000 and if I did, I wouldn't tell them that.
Kent: So what pressure do you feel when you're speaking to large crowd? Or is there no additional pressure, large or small?
Vicki: Oh, no, there's a lot. In fact, when I speak to a large crowd, I always get there early and I walk out on the stage and I see how my voice is going to carry. I practice my arm movements, I get a feel for the stage. I imagine the people out there, it's a big difference. And you have to be comfortable and they have to feel that you're comfortable and you do whatever you can to be comfortable, because when you walk out there, you have to be you and be aware of the crowd and not yourself.
Nathan: Yeah. The larger the crowd, the more I feel the need to prepare.
Kent: Yeah, me too. Why?
Nathan: The stakes are higher.
Vicki: It drains your energy.
Kent: It drains your energy and the stakes are high. You fail before 20 people and the damage is limited to those 20 people.
Nathan: Right. Your congregation still loves you. What are they going to do? Find a new pastor.
Kent: But the bigger the crowd, the bigger the stakes. You really want to do it well. And this is all he said. He gets up, tells this parable, and he's done what seems to be missing? Let's go through our list. What did you say you wanted? An effective speech. And what's missing?
Nathan: There's no bang. Like Vicky said, there's no bang at.
Vicki: The end or he didn't create a need, he just started speaking. And when he was all through, they were going, huh, so what it was.
Nathan: The two words you never wanted to hear? When Kent was evaluating us in seminary, it was the first sermon I did, and he told us, you never want to hear me say this. And I did a good sermon, it was great, but there was no application. So I didn't realize that at the time. I thought it was good. Kent comes out, he's like, okay. And everyone gave their feedback. And then Kent goes, okay, good. So what? And I was like, oh yeah, so what? Who cares? What do you want us to do with this jesus?
Kent: He's got no application.
Nathan: None.
Kent: No explanation.
Nathan: He tells this, what a great metaphor. What's it a metaphor for?
Kent: And it's clear that Jesus disciples also found it lacking because at the end, in verse ten, what do we read?
Vicki: The disciples said to him, why do you speak to people in parables?
Kent: Jesus, this sounds like you just gave an agricultural seminar like this.
Vicki: Which he kind of did.
Kent: Which he kind of did. And I think they came because, I mean, if you've been listening to this podcast, you'll know we spent some time in this sermon on the mount. I mean, Jesus knew how to preach. That is an outstanding example in Matthew five seven of how to preach a sermon. Jesus, he had gift. He knew how to do it, but not here. And Jesus explanation to his disciples, why do you speak parables? Well, that's not much help.
Vicki: He said because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Okay, I gotta say, they didn't seem to know that. I mean, that was news to them.
Kent: So who is the you that Jesus is referring to there when he says the seek knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you? Who's he talking to?
Vicki: The disciples.
Kent: The disciples, okay. And it has not been given to them. Who is the them?
Vicki: All the people on the hillside. And we're talking a lot of people.
Kent: So the knowledge of the secrets of kingdom had not been given to the people, but they've been given to the disciples. The word secrets is fascinating. It really means divine revelation. It means information from God that others don't have access to. That similar concept is we find in Daniel chapter two. In Daniel chapter two, Nebuchadnezzar comes to the magicians and says, hey, I had a dream and I want to know the meaning of it, but I'm not going to tell you what the dream was. You have to figure out what the dream was and what the meaning is. Magician says, there's no human that can do that. That's impossible. Well, Daniel was a magician and so he was in trouble because if they didn't come up with one, Nebuchadnezzar says, I'm going to kill you all. So he prays to God, and because of his prayer, God gave him divine knowledge. In fact, Daniel says, praise be to the goddess, name of God, forever and ever. Wisdom and power are his. He reveals deep and hidden things. He knows what lies in the darkness and light dwells with him. I thank you God, for you have made known to me what we asked of you. You have made known to us the dream of the king. God gave him knowledge, supernatural knowledge. And Jesus is saying, God has given that to you as well. I won't give them the crowd biblical information. Instead, I'm going to give it to you. Why? To understand this, I think we need to remember the larger context. Jesus was involved in ministry a chapter previously, right, chapter twelve. Do you remember what that was about?
Nathan: Well, he was publicly accused of being a sinner because they picked grain on the Sabbath, and he healed a man on the Sabbath.
Kent: So they were against Jesus?
Nathan: Very much so.
Kent: Okay.
Nathan: And then the Pharisees accused him of being demon possessed after that.
Kent: Oh, that's. That's not positive.
Nathan: That's usually not a positive on your ministry, when someone claims you to be in league with the devil. And Jesus responded to that accusation, whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven.
Kent: Ooh, that's tough.
Nathan: He also said to them, you brood of vipers. How can you who are evil say anything good? That's some soft pedaling language there. It sounds. And he called them a wicked and adulterous generation. And he talked about the men of Nineveh. Now, remember, those are the Assyrians, some of the worst people in the entire universe. The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented. And you're not. And the implication is you refuse to repent of your sins. So the worst humanity has ever had to offer, they actually repented when they were confronted with their sin and judgment from God. You are not.
Kent: So would you enjoy preaching to that kind of a crowd?
Nathan: People worse than the worst people who've ever lived? No.
Kent: Yeah, kind of like that.
Nathan: No, I don't think so.
Kent: Because they've no interest. Because they've heard the word and have rejected the word. Right.
Nathan: Right.
Kent: So, with that context in mind, let's examine how Jesus explains his bad sermon to his disciples. They asked and he answers. He answers by explaining his parable. There's a four movements in his explanation. Let's look at them one at a time. So, listen to what the parable of the sower means.
Vicki: Okay. In verse 19, he says, when anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path.
Kent: Hmm.
Vicki: It always makes me nervous when I read that, because as many times as I've heard this sermon, I read this in the Bible. And I'm like, uh.
Kent: So he says, whoever hears the message and does not understand it, that word understand, is really important. To properly understand something is to fully appreciate its significance. So much so is that we act on it. We treat what we hear with the seriousness it deserves. So if I yell, there's a fire. In the house, if you understand fully what I'm saying, you'll run for the exit, right?
Vicki: Yeah. That's a good example.
Kent: If you know that there's exam coming, you'll adjust your schedule and study for it, right?
Vicki: In theory, yeah.
Kent: That's self revealing.
Vicki: Absolutely.
Nathan: Yeah.
Kent: If you understand that a life threatening hurricane is coming, you'll evacuate or make preparations for it. Sir, if you don't respond to the information you're given, you just don't understand it properly. You have dismissed it, and that's what he's saying here. Whoever hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it enough to respond to it, well, the evil one comes and snatches away what was in their heart, and that's the seed along the path. So what impact does the seed make to people who hear but do not understand?
Vicki: Well, in this case, they won't do anything.
Kent: No. They are uninterested listeners. They are just. Who cares? In one ear, out the other. In verse 20, he begins the second movement of this sermon.
Nathan: He says, in verse 20, the seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joyous. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.
Kent: Here. I think he's talking about those. Yeah, they're kind of interested, but they've got a very short attention span. It was interesting for a minute, but not. Not long term. There was some Disney movie that I can't remember the title of, where they had various characters who were animals. The one dog would be paying attention to something, and he would quickly snap his head and say, squirrel. And look away.
Nathan: Yes. The movie was up, and the dog's name is Doug.
Kent: Okay, thank you. Doug was very interested in something. Unless a squirrel happened to walk by. No, we.
Nathan: Yeah, we see this in a lot of celebrity conversions where they will come and they put out a christian movie or a christian album, and they're all in, and you're like, wow. And they put out some amazing art. And then. And then all of a sudden, nah, you know, I'm going back to drugs. And.
Kent: Yeah, I remember years ago, Bob Dylan came out with an album, slow train coming, and that immediately became my favorite album. And then, of course, he. Squirrel.
Nathan: Well, he had one more in him. Saved was good. And then. Okay, then he scrolled after that.
Kent: That's the second movement of this sermon. In verse 22, he moves on to the third.
Vicki: It says, the seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word. But the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.
Kent: Ah, so they hear the word. They're interested in the word, but then what happens?
Vicki: Well, they fall away, too, because they have a lot of worries, a lot of cares, and they get caught up in wealth. And so that chokes the word. And their lives are unfruitful.
Kent: So they don't give Jesus words priority. Right.
Vicki: Right. That's a good way to say that.
Kent: Other things take their attention away.
Nathan: So it's like.
Kent: It's just.
Nathan: Jesus is just a tag on.
Kent: Right.
Nathan: It's like, oh, you know, I wear Jesus brand shoes, but that's not the most important thing in my life. It's just one of many.
Kent: So. Stanza one, uninterested listeners. Stanza two, short attention span listeners. Stanza three, low priority listeners. But what happens starting in verse 23.
Vicki: That says, but the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop yielding a 160 or 30 times what was sown.
Kent: Now, that's a harvest that lands on good soil. These are unconditional listeners. So what is he saying to his disciples? What does this explanation help the disciples understand?
Nathan: He's not wasting his time on number one, two, or three. He's spending his time on number four, which is what they happen to be.
Kent: Yeah, he's saying, one, two, and three are not worth the effort. But number four kind of people, the people who hear my words and understand them enough to put them into practice, they are the ones that I'm investing in, and those who have will be given even more. Wow. You know, we started off thinking that this was a poor sermon because we thought Jesus was preaching to the crowds. But he wasn't actually preaching to the crowds. He was preaching to his disciples. Another reason we thought Jesus parable sermon was poor was because we didn't realize that that wasn't a sermon at all. When he stands up and tells that parable at the very beginning of this chapter, that was the application that was a living demonstration of the explanation of the parable of the soils. The disciples knew what kind of people were there listening, how hard hearted they were, and resistant to his words in the previous chapter. And this sermon was Jesus explanation of his talk to the crowd. You know, why I didn't give them all that I could give them back in the sermon? When I gave the sermon, the mount, because these people did not have ears to hear. They were not interested. And I'm not going to spend my time on them. That first opening scene, that first sermon, if you will, was a masterclass and how to minister to hostile or even spiritually complacent cultures. It was a demonstration. It was an explanation why we shouldn't invest our energy where we won't get a return. And since he knew that there weren't any level four good soil people in the crowds gathered around him, he focused on his disciples, who were wholeheartedly committing to applying God's word to their lives and the lives of others. After all, the disciples gave up everything to follow Jesus. They were fully committed and he fully was invested in them. And why did God speak to Daniel in Daniel chapter two and not the other magicians? Because Daniel was a magician. That's because even though the magicians clearly knew about the goddess of Israel, because Daniel never held back in proclaiming his faith, those magicians rejected that knowledge. They did not have ears to hear. And so God gave Daniel understanding and not them. Have you ever advised or gave counseling advice to people who listened but didn't follow through?
Vicki: Oh, yeah, way more often than people who did. But the problem I have with this is we don't always know. And we don't know if at a later point they might and Jesus would. He'd know their hearts, but we don't. So I don't think this lets us off the hook from trying.
Kent: So Jesus did proclaim his word to them in chapter twelve. In spite of the opposition, he continued to preach and continued to minister. But when there was no response, this is what he did. In the same way that you, at least I don't continue to give counsel to people who don't want to ever act on anything I say. There's just no point. Why are we having this conversation if you're not going to hear and follow through?
Nathan: It's kind of like if a guy, you know, he's addicted to pornography and he talks to me because his wife found him, and you got to go talk to the pastor, right? You get through all the guys defenses and you find out he doesn't care. He doesn't see it as sinful. He doesn't realize he's victimizing the people he's watching in the images. He just cares that the consequences go away. He does not see that there's a problem, right? So me spending an hour a week, 2 hours a week with this person is a waste of my time because he just wants the consequences to go away versus someone who, you know, has a pornography addiction and they hate it, but they lack the power to stop viewing it. Well, that's different. I will give that person all of my time. Right. I had a number of years ago, there was a young woman who was practicing witchcraft. She was a wiccan.
Kent: Wow.
Nathan: And she contacted me, actually, she contacted a mutual friend who contacted me, and she was experiencing some horrifying things, like this evil presence that would follow her wherever she would go at night. Not to get too explicit with what she was going through, but she said she would pass out in one location and she would wake up with all of her clothes off in another place.
Kent: Wow.
Nathan: Clear across the way. And I have my checklists and mental health things. She'd gone and had herself mentally checked out already. She was convinced that this thing was demonic. And so I shared the gospel with her and about how Jesus has power over these authorities or over these spirits, and that we need to close the doors that we've opened up to the demonic in our lives. And she was flat out, she says, okay, so what I hear you saying is, you can pray for me, but I need to choose to follow Jesus and stop practicing this. And I said, yeah. And she says, I don't want to do that. Just pray the prayer so I can get on with my life. And I said to her, I'm not going to do that because it is your lifestyle that has made you get into this situation right now. But she just wanted some sort of magical exorcistic prayer to cast out the demons, and then she could go on living a life where she is in communion with unclean spirits that give her power. And so I flat out refused. I did offer to pray for her, but I prayed that she would come to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and follow and serve him only. But was I going to go further and work with her there? No, because she just wanted to get away from the consequences of the situation. She did not want to give her life and follow Jesus.
Kent: This is a tough parable because jesus is saying very clearly as a farmer is foolish to throw seeds anywhere except on good soil. Don't bother throwing the word of God, giving the word of God to people who are not going to take it seriously if they demonstrate that they're not interested. Move on. That's why he says in verses 13.
Vicki: Through 15, he says, this is why I speak in parables, though seeing they do not see, though hearing they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah. You will be ever hearing, but never understanding. You will be ever seeing, but never perceiving for this. People's heart has become calloused. They hardly hear with their ears. They have closed their eyes.
Nathan: Yeah, back to your point, Vicki. That's what's hard with what Kent's talking about here, what Jesus is doing here, because how do I know? There's a huge amount of discernment that's going to have to go into those decision making processes. Kind of what you're communicating, right?
Vicki: Yes. And I have heard this as you be careful what kind of soil you are. Don't, don't be shallow soil, don't be weedy soil. You be a rich soil. That's more comfortable to me. I also think that's not up to me, that's up to Christ. So.
Kent: The thing that is fascinating about this parable is that it is used in different ways by different gospel writers. I am not saying this is what this is the meaning of the parable of soils in other gospels, but I am saying that's how Matthew is helping us understand it. Which means that Jesus could have used this story multiple times for different situations and for different purposes. Not that I've ever preached the same sermon different times or anything. It's just that I wouldn't put it past Jesus either.
Nathan: You travel around with Kent and you're like, oh, here comes this one.
Kent: But this passage is a lesson on ministry priorities. And if we are ministering to people God's word and they are not applying it, they are not understanding it, they are not recognizing the seriousness of what Jesus is saying and adjusting their life accordingly. Move on. Jesus demonstrates here the importance of investing your time and energy where it'll have the most significant impact, with people eager to listen and quick to act on the truths of God's word. Jesus ministry is not mysterious, just focused. Let's do the same.
Brian: How can we continue communicating God's word to a culture that opposes him? By concentrating our efforts on those who take God's word seriously. I trust that today's discussion of God's word has been helpful and served as an encouragement to not just be hearers of the word, but doers together. Lets bring gods word to life, to our lives. This week the Crosstalk podcast is a production of Crosstalk global, equipping biblical communicators so every culture hears gods voice. To find out more or to support the work of this ministry, please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org. if you want to get involved and learn about Crosstalk, come to our taste of Crosstalk seminar on October 24 in Norco California. Or if you want to help us train the next generation of biblical communicators, all you have to do is click donate in the show notes and make a donation of any size. We're getting ready to graduate a group of students in Panama later this month. You can also support this show by sharing it on your social media and telling your friends. Tune in next Friday as we continue our discussion through the gospel of Matthew. Be sure to join us.
Vicki: The problem I have with that is the people who supposedly understood it had no idea what he was talking about.
Kent: No, they did. They did earlier. They did earlier. They did. In chapter twelve, he came and he was preaching. Well, this is his response, Jesus response to their response to his ministry. In chapter twelve. He went and ministered and they rejected him in chapter 13.
Vicki: And it wasn't just the gospel or the Pharisees. It said there were thousands of people on that hillside.
Kent: I know, but Jesus did not only minister to Pharisees.
Vicki: But nobody on that hillside that came to listen to him was genuinely interested.
Kent: That's what Jesus said.
Nathan: Well, to push back a little bit on what you said there, Kent, too, is it's almost like this was an incomplete sermon because he does raise need with the parable, which is also the application. But he raised his knee because he tells his story. And it's like, what? And then he walks away. And whoever follows him and goes, what the flip are you talking about? Then he tells them the reason, right? So it's almost like a sermon or a message in two locations where he goes, okay, here's this thing. And people are like, ah, he's worthless. And they walk away the one direction. This is crazy. But then his disciples, his followers, and it doesn't say it was only the twelve. It just uses the blanket term disciple. The ones who are interested, like, what's he talking about? They actually followed him. So it's almost like the image is those who didn't care, they just said, okay, this guy doesn't even know what he's talking about. He's just speaking in riddles. And those who are genuinely interested in hearing the rest of the story, the rest of the sermon, they go to the right to follow him and go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What was that all about? Why are you talking like this? And then he gives them the rest of the story. He raised the need. And for those who actually wanted to follow through on the need, they came and followed him. So I don't know. I would imagine that some of the people that said his disciples could have been some of the people who heard him and were confused along with the twelve.
Kent: Yeah. My problem is that he is very clear when they say, why do you speak to the people in parables? The knowledge of the secrets has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have even what he has will be taken away. So. And then when he says Isaiah, he's like, you. People refuse to listen to the word. So I'm not giving it to you. I can't. That. That is so clear. I just.
Nathan: So he's already. So what you're saying is he's already had an encounter with this particular crowd, and it was already negative, and the general flavor of the crowd was antagonistic.
Kent: Yeah, well, they were not. I'm not saying antagonistic. They were not willing to hear. They weren't willing to do anything seriously with it. That's the parable of the soils. Not that they're his enemies, but they are unresponsive long term to the word that was thrown to them. I. You know, I think I spent 10 hours trying to figure this out yesterday, and I just couldn't come to any other conclusion. I think. I don't know how many times I rewrote it because nobody ever talks like this. But I can't see how else I can understand Matthew's version of this, of this parable. And it's not the same as Luke's, and it's not the same as Mark's, but it's what Matthew is saying. And keep in mind that Matthew is a jew. Right? And he's saying that jewish. These jewish people have rejected Jesus word. So. And that's what Isaiah prophesied would happen. You'll be ever hearing and never understanding. For their people's heart has become calloused. They hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Almost sent the other way to.
Vicki: I know.
Nathan: It's easy, the way your eye goes across that text right there. It goes right to eye.
Kent: It does.
Nathan: Because when Vicki read it, I was like, yep, that's right. And then she said, that's weird. I'm like, that is weird. Why?
Kent: So, yeah, Jesus being. I think he's pretty. Pretty harsh, pretty clear. Go away. There's good soil.
Nathan: But on Vicky's point, it is really hard as non divine people, to discern what is wasting my time and what is not. I mean, sometimes it's really evident there's people, and it's like they call you and you're like, oh, no, I'm not taking that. That's going to voicemail because you know that they're just going to drain you and drain your time. You haven't moved the needle at all. You haven't moved the football down the field in an inch. So it's not really worth your time. I got that. Right. But then I got it. But it's really challenging to just discount and say, well, this is just a waste of my time. Well, maybe it's not. Maybe it is an important conversation.
Kent: It is, but it's possible because Jesus told his disciples to do it, so. And they were not divine. So in other words, I don't. I agree. It's not easy. I'm agreeing with you, Nathan, but I don't think it's impossible. And I don't go for people who say, no matter what, you have to keep doing it. You have to keep doing it. No, you don't. Jesus said that.
Nathan: Well, sure. I mean, I think it's easier to think in terms of my personal life, right. Because there's friends that I have, you know, nothing, not necessarily dropped out of my life, but I don't go out of my way to foster a relationship with them because they don't give me the time of day, so.
Kent: Well, I think what we have here is exactly what Jesus said in the sermon on the mount. Don't give pearls to pig people. Don't devalue the word and the gospel by throwing it in front of people who don't consider it valuable. You have to be able to discern if this is a pig person or whether they are good soil. And I think we can devalue the gospel by and God's word by continually presenting it to people who don't give it. Don't give a rip. That's fine. They can do that. Don't hate them, but move on. You want to find good soil, a good farmer finds good soil. And that's an agricultural lesson. That's global and universal.
Vicki: I can think of two people who are committed and rejected the gospel for years. So I'm just not comfortable saying, oh, well, you didn't just jump on the bandwagon, so good riddance.
Nathan: Well, I mean, I guess my question would be, how are they resistant?
Vicki: Well, the first one didn't show any interest. It was a man, thought he was a Christian, wasn't. And later on, years later became a Christian and is solid. And another one, I don't remember the beginning of it, but he died. And I remember when I was with him right before he died. And he said to me, thank you so much. He said, I have absolutely no fear of death and I owe my salvation to you. And when I remember meeting him and, man, he had no interest in the Lord.
Nathan: Yeah. So, but did you, did your entire, did you use your entire gifts of evangelism, which I think you have, Vicki, did you use that all of your time and energy on those two individuals?
Vicki: Ask me that another way.
Nathan: Did you use all of your time and energy working as an evangelist on those individuals?
Vicki: No more than I ever have with anybody else.
Nathan: Right. So I guess, I mean, maybe to Mary Kent's point here, to your point is we're not. You didn't say, okay, here's my project, and I'm going to drag you into heaven and. Right. And everyone else who was willing to listen or you had a ministry among you, didn't neglect them to spend all of your time with these people who are unresponsive. You lived your life as a Christian, and when you had opportunities, you shared Christ. But your whole life's mission didn't become enraptured into these two individuals.
Vicki: If I'm understanding correctly, I did a lot. Um, I don't know, I'm just, I'm uncomfortable. I'm uncomfortable with this. I'm uncomfortable with it. If I ever had a chance to, I would, I would, you know, I would. I don't think beating somebody up is going to get them into heaven. So that, there it is right there.
Nathan: That's.
Vicki: But that, in the way I do it. Right with, with anybody. But, but I would have a lot with these two.
Kent: Yeah. I don't know that I like it either. I just can't avoid what I think the passage says. The one that's undeniable here is that if you hear but you don't act, then it will be taken away from you and given to others. That's what he says. And I. Those, those words just seem unescapable to me.
Nathan: We can all agree it's an uncomfortable text.
Vicki: I had a bad sermon.
Kent: No, but my point, obviously, I hope I've said that it wasn't a bad sermon. It was. We just misunderstood. We thought the first part was the sermon, but that wasn't the sermon was his explanation.
Vicki: His explanation.
Kent: The sermon is explanation. And the opening quote, bad sermon was not a bad sermon. It was him showing how he dealt with people who refused to respond to his word. So at least that's my attempt, was to say that.
Nathan: Man, that would be an interesting thing. You know, public speaking say something really weird and then just, you know, walk outside.
Kent: Big crowd. I mean, this. This was an important thing. People walk.
Nathan: People go into their cars, they drive away. You know, three people come up. Hey, what was that all about? Well, let me tell.