How should we respond to friendly fire in the church?
Text: Matthew 12
Hosts:
J. Kent Edwards
Vicki Hitzges
Nathan Norman
Narrator: Brian French
The CrossTalk Podcast is a production of CrossTalk Global, equipping biblical communicators, so every culture hears God’s voice. To find out more, or to support the work of this ministry please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org
Produced by Nathan James Norman/Untold Podcast Production
© 2024 CrossTalk Global
Brian: There is a tremendous variety of team sports that are played around the world. Football is hugely popular, but it's very different than basketball. Rugby is different from ice hockey. Ultimate Frisbee is nothing like lacrosse. However, one thing that all these sports have in common is the knowledge that their success on the court, field, pitch or rink is determined by their ability to work together as a team to achieve victory. They all recognize that while one player on their team may have different skill sets, no one player can win on their own. Unless they coordinate their actions. They will never hoisthen trophy in victory. The same is true of the church. We Christians must work together, celebrating our diverse gifts, training and perspectives, and harness them to advance God's kingdom. But that does not always happen. Disagreements on how ministry should be done can result in resistance, hostility, and paralysis. What should we do when a christian teammate turns against us? How should we respond to friendly fire? How did Jesus react? Discover the answer as Kent Edwards, Nathan Norman and Vicky Hitzkes take notes on the example Jesus sets for us in Matthew, chapter twelve. Welcome to Crosstalk, a christian podcast whose goal is for us to encourage each other to not only increase our knowledge of the Bible, but to take the next step beyond information into transformation. Our goal is to bring the Bible to life, into all our lives. I'm Brian French. Today, Doctor Kent Edwards, Vicky Hitzkis, and Nathan Norman continue their discussion through the gospel of Matthew. And if you have a Bible handy, turn to Matthew chapter twelve as we join their discussion.
Kent: It's no secret that committed christians can have very strong but very different opinions on how God's work should be done. Nathan Vicki, have you ever seen different perspectives of christian ministry, break relationships or cause division on God's team?
Vicki: I was in a really sweet church and it wasn't a really big church, but good people. And there was a pastor and assistant pastor, and I don't exactly know what happened, but some of the elders wanted the assistant pastor to be the pastor and they ended up asking the pastor to leave and people in the congregation wanted the pastor to stay the pastor. And I mean that God ugly. And people left and went with the and people stayed and went with the assistant pastor who became the pastor and oh man, that was years and years ago and there are people that still haven't forgiven each other. It was terrible.
Nathan: Yeah, yeah, it is interesting how, I mean, that is a special case, but something that may not necessarily be a moral issue. Who should lead the church becomes a moral issue because of the way people are handling it, right, whether through the gossip the backbiting, the maliciousness, all of those things. One of my friends, she's a retired pastor's wife, she used to say, and I think she was quoting someone else, but she used to say, the devil is in the worship team. And what she meant by that was, you know, if you look at a music team, you're filled with artists, people who have passion about their art. And oftentimes they have divergent views on how that art should be expressed and what often happens. And there's nothing wrong saying, hey, I think we should start with a really strong song. I think we need a somber one that ramps up. I think we should sing a hymn. I think we should sing something more contemporary. There's nothing wrong with those in and of themselves. They're just different and cultural decisions that you're going to make for your church. The problem is when you look at person a, who wants the hymns, and person b, who wants contemporary, and you start getting into a fight with them, you start hating them or causing division within the church, that's when the problem occurs.
Vicki: Yeah.
Kent: Yeah, it is. I think a lot of the kind of stress that we face is because of changing times, changing generations. Nobody likes change, right?
Vicki: Pretty much nobody.
Kent: Yeah, that's universal. I like things the way they are. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And people come very attached to the way that they do ministry. And so when you start trying to accomplish the same task, but do it a different way, man, that hurts. I mean, to your point, Nathan, I was in a church years ago that was very traditional. Traditional time of services, traditional sanctuary, traditional worship. And I, you know, things are changing. And I introduced a drum service. I just. I thought I was going to lose my job.
Vicki: I mean, it was a drum.
Kent: A drum, yes. Having someone on the stage in a morning service, of all things, I mean, evening is not so bad, but a morning service, that is terrible. And when he, you know, started banging on the drums as you have to, would play the drums, I mean, you would have thought that I had compromised the gospel and said Jesus was not God. I mean, it was. It was just crazy. Again, times are changing the way we do. Ministry has to change. Not our objectives, but our methodologies, can adapt with different cultures and so on, but it can cause really hard and strong feelings. I know that not just because of our own experiences, but I see that in Matthew, chapter twelve, because something similar happened to Jesus. In Matthew, chapter eleven, verse one, we learned that after Jesus had finished instructing his twelve disciples, he went on from there to teach and preach in the towns of Galilee. So Jesus is now beginning his formal ministry, and the account of Jesus ministry continues. In the first verse of chapter twelve.
Vicki: It says, at that time, Jesus went through the grain fields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry, and they began to pick some heads of grain and eat them.
Kent: Hmm. Is Jesus doing anything wrong here?
Vicki: Well, I've read this story before, so.
Kent: No, but is he? Is there some inadequacy? Is some sin involved in what Jesus is doing?
Vicki: Well, it depends on who you are. Jesus doesn't think so. So the answer is no. But if you were there, you'd think, yeah, they were doing work on the Sabbath. They were eating. They were harvesting, if you will. You have to go on to read it. It says, when the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, look, your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.
Kent: Okay. On the surface, this seems like crazy town. Does God or has God ever forbidden his people to eat on a Sabbath?
Nathan: No.
Kent: Do you eat on Sunday often? Often?
Nathan: Usually after the service is over.
Kent: So these guys are mad because they're eating on the Sunday. This sounds nuts. Nathan, can you make sense of it? What's going on here?
Nathan: Okay, so on the Sabbath, the 7th day, they were supposed to rest. That was a commandment, right? And in order to figure out the application of that law, humanity, the Jews came up with a bunch of laws on how what constituted his work and what didn't constitute as work.
Kent: Okay.
Nathan: And so in addition to that application, which is good, like, okay, what constitutes work, what doesn't constitute work. In addition to that, however, they built up a hedge of additional rules that had to be followed. So in case you happened to violate one of those rules, you still didn't violate the law, the Torah laws. So we're still good with God, right? It was a barrier of protection that they built up. So one of the laws was that you're not allowed to harvest. Okay, well, then what's the application of harvesting? Well, the application of harvesting is removing any food from the stalks, which obviously, you know, a bunch of eggheads came up with this, because if you've actually done any kind of harvesting work, it is hard, sweaty, exhausting, and long. Not pick. Oh, I'm done. But they saw this as a violation of the Sabbath rule to rest.
Kent: Ah. So they added their own tradition. Yes, to try and understand the command. And so because Jesus was breaking their tradition, not the original command, but they were all upset.
Vicki: Exactly.
Kent: Okay. A short time later, a somewhat similar incident occurs. We read that in verse nine and.
Vicki: Ten, it says, going on from that place. He went to their synagogue and a man with a shriveled hand was there looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus. They ask him, is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?
Kent: Okay, so, Nathan, this sounds like almost a repeat of what happened with picking a few heads of grain as a snack.
Nathan: Seems like Matthew is making a point here.
Kent: So they were upset because he was healing on the Sabbath. Why would they, how would they come to that conclusion?
Vicki: Well, again, he was working, and I'm sure that violated their laws.
Kent: Okay. On two occasions, religious leaders opposed Jesus legitimate God approved ministry because of the non traditional way he was doing ministry. I mean, Jesus was just doing ministry. He was going about preaching and teaching, and the guys needed a snack as the way to keep their energy up, and they got mad at him. Man comes with physical need and they say, are you going to heal him? Because if you do, that's going to be work. Doesn't say that in the Bible anywhere, but it's their tradition. This kind of behavior trying to stop people from doing legitimate ministry because it violates their traditions. We find that in history. Do you remember, do you remember the famous missionary Hudson Taylor?
Nathan: Yes. Yeah, he went to China.
Kent: Ah.
Nathan: And there were, he was not the first missionary to go to China, but typically what missionaries would do, and sometimes still do today, is they'll go into a culture that's not their culture, and they expect the culture to adapt to their cultural norms rather than them adapting to the culture. Hudson Taylor turned it all up on end. He said, well, if I'm going to reach the Chinese, I'm going to have to live like a chinese person.
Kent: What is that? What do you mean?
Nathan: He would have to wear their clothing, get haircuts based on what they would wear their hair at.
Kent: So he's looking chinese.
Nathan: Yeah. Eat their food, send his kids to their schools.
Kent: Okay. Okay. And people got all upset at him because he was not doing missions the traditional way. He, in addition to that, he had believed in faith based funding. Let's go ahead and raise money to help support this ministry. That was not common in the day, and people thought that was wrong. He emphasized personal faith and experience over formal theological education. Wow. That was, you know, now we're compromising, now we are watering down. You could just hear people coming with that kind of critique. When he established churches, he didn't, you know, make them have western style governing structure. They probably didn't use Robert's rule of order. And again, they just thought this was wrong. Many people in the day because Hudson Taylor dared to do God's ministry in non traditional ways. And when you do that, you'll almost always have opposition, just as Jesus did. People will say, no, that's not the way we've done it before. You can't do it that way. And they will put roadblocks. You'll start getting friendly fire. You'll have opposition because people don't like change. So knowing that that happened to Jesus, it happened to Hudson Taylor. We're pretty sure, I'm pretty sure it also happens today. So how should we respond when the religious establishment opposes non traditional methods that we might attempt to implement in order to build God's kingdom? How should we respond when our own people don't want to change? Well, how did Jesus respond to the issue of picking grain on the Sabbath? Well, how did he respond there in verse three and following?
Vicki: Well, he said, he answered, haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. Or haven't you read in the law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent?
Kent: So he's showing them from scripture that their interpretation is not biblical. Right?
Vicki: Right.
Kent: And to the issue of healing on the Sabbath. Jesus responded in verse eleven and twelve.
Vicki: He said, he said to them, if any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? Of how much more valuable is a person than a sheep? Therefore, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.
Kent: So Jesus is explaining once again from the scriptures that his approach to ministry is biblical. It's different. It breaks cultural norms, but it's certainly not wrong. His approach to ministry may be novel, but it is supported by scripture. I mean, that's why Matthew quotes Isaiah. He immediately says that Jesus went on doing his non traditional ministry. Why?
Vicki: He says, this was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah. And this is what was spoken. It says, here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love and whom I delight. I will put my spirit on him and he will proclaim justice to the nations. He will not quarrel or cry out. No one will hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out till he has brought justice through victory in his name. The nations will put their hope so.
Kent: Matthew wants us to know that while Jesus was breaking the norms, he was fulfilling God's purpose as the messiah. He was doing exactly what his father wanted him to do. So back to my question. How should we respond to criticism for effective but non traditional approaches to ministry? Well, first of all, don't let criticism stop you, right? He did not allow the criticism of these traditionalists to stop his ministry. He just went on his way and continued to do that. And I think, as you do that, explain from scripture to these people that new does not mean wrong. I mean, we want to help. We want to be redemptive. We want them to see through their cultural blindness, that we want the main task of God and his kingdom to be accomplished. That doesn't have to be done in old fashioned, traditional ways. Transforming lives with the power of God is a good thing, even if it tramples on religious traditions. So don't let the criticism stop you, but help them see from the Bible that this is a legitimate, God honoring way to accomplish God's purposes here on earth. But secondly, and there's a lot of emphasis on this in this chapter, while we don't let their criticism stop us, we do let our critics know the consequences, their actions. I mean, look at what happens in verse 22.
Nathan: And following it says, the Pharisees brought him a demon possessed man who was blind and mute. And Jesus healed him so that he could both talk and see. All the people were astonished and said, could this be the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, it is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demonstration.
Kent: Here's another example of Jesus non traditional ministry. And the Pharisees, man, they take their opposition to a whole new level, don't they?
Nathan: Yeah, they're calling Jesus demon possessed. He's doing good in the power of the devil.
Kent: And that's what can happen when people hang on to their traditions. Rather than keep the goal of God's goal for ministry in sight, you can have people so upset that they'll literally attack you, as if you are anti God, empowered almost by Satan. And Jesus points out the stupidity of their argument in verse 26.
Vicki: And following, he says, if Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? But if it is by the spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Kent: Yeah, he's saying, don't be so stupid. Look what I've just done. By casting out a demon from this person is certainly good work. It's God's work. Satan doesn't do God's work, so this can't be satanic, you idiots. But he points out the consequences of their criticism. This is what will happen to people who choose to elevate tradition over effective ministry if you genuinely are. People are trying to stop change and therefore stopping God's work in the world. Well, Jesus points that out in verses 34 and following how serious this is.
Nathan: It says, for the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. For by your words, you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.
Kent: Now that's strong, isn't it?
Vicki: Yes. And not popular.
Kent: No.
Vicki: I mean, imagine saying that to somebody.
Nathan: Yeah, I'm just gonna copy and paste this, put it on my clipboard and just post, post, post on social media. Just keep posting this verse. I probably need it too in some, some cases.
Kent: But to oppose God's work, to put a stumbling block in front of the movement of goddess because it doesn't fit with your tradition, that's evil. And the words that you say to stop progress because it doesn't fit your predilections, that's condemning you. It is evil to stand in opposition to effective, unorthodox kingdom ministry. It is satanic. And when the leaders of God's people oppose a fresh, effective work of God, they are acting in harmony with Satan. Because as we read in verses 43.
Vicki: And following, it says, when an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. And then it says, I will return to the house I left. Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.
Kent: Wow. The consequences of standing in the way of the expansion of God's kingdom because of how it offends our traditions is evil. It is wicked and it will accumulate and the consequences will last for eternity. Guys, have you ever heard the phrase, what are the seven last words of a dying church?
Nathan: I've heard it. I can't remember what they are.
Kent: It's. We've never done it that way before.
Vicki: Oh, I've heard that. Oh yeah.
Kent: Have you heard people say that you bethe. Yeah. Yeah. And it's usually negative, right?
Nathan: Oh, or we've tried it and it didn't work.
Kent: I've certainly heard it. A number of years ago, I was interim pastor of an older, established church. I was asked to go in because they needed help, and, boy, they did. For one thing, the building was a mess. It was run down, and it was depressing. And among other changes that I was trying to do, I suggested a fresh coat of paint might help. Replacing the stained threadbare carpet in the sanctuary might be a step up. And maybe we could replace those ancient oak pews, as hard as they are, with padded contemporary chairs so that the sanctuary could be used for, you know, numerous weekday activities instead of just Sunday mornings.
Vicki: Whoo.
Kent: I. This one older gentleman came to me and he said, and I quote, we've gotten rid of every pastor who said we should get rid of the pews. If you do that, we will get rid of you. And he meant it. I mean, this, this is. I'd stepped on something he thought was sacred.
Nathan: Let's turn into a horror movie real quick here.
Kent: There's nothing in the Bible that says people have to sit in pews any more than it says you can't snack on heads of grain on the Sabbath. But they preferred their tradition over kingdom advancement. And guess what happened to that church?
Vicki: It died.
Kent: It died. It eventually closed.
Nathan: Jesus is not certainly saying that we change our theology or we change our beliefs. What we're doing is we're changing how we communicate our theology and our beliefs, how we communicate the word of God to a world that their communication style is changing.
Kent: Right.
Nathan: Our theology stays the same. Our methodology changes.
Kent: Right. What is the best delivery method of the unchanging gospel to our changing world? Every generation, our generation needs to explore new ways of accomplishing God's enduring mission for his church. But rest assured, I that when you and I try to be innovative, we will get pushback. As soon as you think and act outside of the box, there's going to be opposition. You're going to face friendly fire because nobody likes change. When that happens, follow Jesus example. Don't let the criticism stop you. Change is necessary. The world is changing the way we do. Ministry needs to adapt to the change in our society and explain to people, yes, the method's different, but it's biblical. It's biblical. And if the opposition to necessary innovation is unyielding, we have to let our critics know, as Jesus did, the consequences of their actions. Allowing your preferences to stop God's kingdom from advancing that has eternal consequences. As Jesus puts it so bluntly. At the end of this chapter it.
Vicki: Says, someone told Jesus, your mother and brothers are standing outside wanting to speak to you. And he replied to them, who is my mother and who are my brothers? Pointing to his disciples, he said, here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.
Kent: I would encourage you to have the courage to do what Jesus did. Be innovative. We all have a responsibility to be as effective as we can to accomplish God's purpose in our contemporary culture. And when we do and we push forward for the advancement of his kingdom, we become his brother and sister or mother.
Brian: When you get opposition for changing things or trying to change things in your efforts to build God's kingdom, how should you respond? Don't stop, don't give in, keep changing. But do let the naysayers know the consequences of not changing and do what it takes to build God's kingdom. I trust that todays discussion of gods word has been helpful and served as an encouragement to not just be hearers of the word, but doers together. Lets bring gods word to life, to our lives. This week the Crosstalk podcast is a production of Crosstalk global, equipping biblical communicators so every culture hears gods voice. To find out more or to support the work of this ministry, please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org. if you want to get involved and learn about Crosstalk, then come out to our taste of Crosstalk seminar on October 24 in Norco, California. Or if you want to help us train the next generation of biblical communicators, all you have to do is click donate in the show notes and make a donation of any size. We're getting ready to graduate a group of students in Panama later this month. You can also support this show by sharing it on social media and telling your friends. Tune in next Friday as we continue our discussion through the gospel of Matthew, be sure to join us.
Nathan: There is a tremendous variety of team sports played around the world. Football is hugely popular but is very different from basketball. Football, of course, meaning american football or soccer football.
Kent: I deliberately put that in because you can take it either way you want.
Nathan: It'll work. Globally, rugby is distinct from ice hockey. Yeah, I had a conversation with a guy not too long ago. He was getting out of ministry after decades and he said to me.
Kent: I'm.
Nathan: Trying to get word for word what he said. He said, I've tried everything and nothing worked. That's why I'm getting out because I've run out of things to do. Right. You talk about someone who doesn't want to innovate.
Kent: Right.
Nathan: Well, the hubris to say, I've tried everything. Everything? Really?
Kent: Everything.
Nathan: I mean, I remember campus crusade for Christ now crew International. They put out a book years ago, like, I don't know, 385 ideas for campus ministry. And the purpose wasn't to go through all of those. It was to go through and say, oh, I could do that. Oh, I could do that. Right. Are you telling me you've gone through all of those options or all of those tries?
Kent: Come on, it's fascinating. Back in the day, evangelism explosion was huge.
Nathan: Oh, yeah. I took the class.
Kent: I took it. I was a teacher of it. I had brought it into the church. I thought it was great. Nobody's doing it today.
Nathan: Oh, no.
Kent: Because you can't. The whole premise was you knocked on someone's door and had a godly conversation. Today, at least in my environment, nobody wants you to come and knock on their door.
Nathan: Absolutely not.
Kent: Like, what are you doing? It's an offense. Does that mean we stop gospel presentations? No, but it means we have to do it in a different way. Right. Maybe instead of knocking on their doors, we invite our neighbors to come into our door, have a barbecue, develop a relationship, and share the gospel when it's appropriate.
Nathan: The hard thing with evangelism explosion, two. The first question, if I remember correctly, was, if you were to die tonight, do you know that you'd go to heaven? Right. So there's a lot.
Kent: What would you say to him, Stanley, why should I let you into my heaven?
Nathan: Right. Well, but that assumes a cultural Christianity that does not exist anymore.
Kent: No.
Nathan: In the vast majority of people.
Kent: And again, I'm not, I'm not being critical.
Nathan: No. I had some of those conversations over the years, and they were very helpful with people who had some sort of christian background.
Kent: I learned, you know, four spiritual laws. Speaking of canvas, crusade pen. And read the book to them with the pen going across. Let's be honest, I did it. It was a wonderful way to share the bridge illustration how they could have peace with God. But today, yeah, people would be offended by me reading a tract to them while they stood there and watched. This wasn't wrong, but it may not be the most effective today. Being innovative in how and flexible to accomplish God's unchanging purpose in a new but highly effective way. I think that's critical. But there will be people who will say, change is wrong. We need to get back to what we used to do because it used to work.