How can a dying church be made alive?
Text: Matthew 9:35-10:42
Hosts:
J. Kent Edwards
Vicki Hitzges
Nathan Norman
Narrator: Brian French
The CrossTalk Podcast is a production of CrossTalk Global, equipping biblical communicators, so every culture hears God’s voice. To find out more, or to support the work of this ministry please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org
Produced by Nathan James Norman/Untold Podcast Production
© 2024 CrossTalk Global
Brian: Over the centuries, christians have often built structures to facilitate Sunday worship services and weekday ministries. Some facilities have been large and ornate, while others are small and humble. Regardless of their architecture, however, the decades always take their toll. Carpets become worn, roofs begin to leak, the windows are drafty, and the furnace needs to be replaced. Renovation projects often become unexpectedly difficult and costly. However, as the decades pass, congregations, just like the buildings, require renovation. Over time, a congregation's passion for God can cool, their doctrine can wander, and their zeal can deteriorate into complacency. Preachers who God calls to transform complacent, self absorbed churches into the first love, sacrificial, mission minded community of its youth have no easy task. Renovating a church's culture is far more challenging than swapping out some carpet or replacing a furnace. Why would any church leader take on such a challenge? Join Vicki Hitzkis, Kent Edwards, and Nathan Normans conversation as they listen and learn from Jesus encouragement to his disciples. Welcome to Crosstalk, a christian podcast whose goal is for us to encourage each other to not only increase our knowledge of the Bible, but to take the next step beyond information into transformation. Our goal is to bring the Bible to life, into all our lives. Im Brian Frenchenhouse. Today, doctor Kent Edwards, Vicky Hitzkis, and Nathan Norman continue their discussion through the Gospel of Matthew. If you have a Bible handy, turn to Matthew, chapter nine, verse 35, to chapter ten, verse 42, as we join their discussion.
Kent: Vicki Nathan, have you ever seen a local church that needed a spiritual renovation?
Vicki: I suspect most of them do at any given time, don't you think?
Nathan: I was gonna say change the question have you ever seen a local church that doesn't need a spiritual? Yeah.
Kent: Yes. But there are some situations that when a church has or a denomination has drifted so far, the challenge of bringing the back would be daunting. And it would be tough for anyone to be in a situation like that and try to bring it back to its roots. That would be enormously challenging. Why? Nathan, if you found yourself in that situation, what would be the challenges you would face?
Nathan: Every local congregation and denomination has a culture that has been set up. And when you come into that culture and you see things that are dysfunctional or toxic or sinful even, to come in and try and change those things is very hard for people because that is the culture that they live in. It's the air that they breathe they assume or justified. What they're doing is right and good and healthy and wonderful, and it requires change. And changing culture is hard. It takes time. It's scary. There will always be pushback.
Kent: Yeah. Changing a culture seems to me like it's like changing the direction of a massive cargo ship. I mean, you can't turn it on a dime. It takes.
Nathan: Yeah.
Kent: It takes time.
Nathan: It's like melting an iceberg with a hairdryer.
Kent: Right. I've been tempted to skip that. And let's just start a new church. Right? Church plant. Build a new culture from scratch, I think is easier than transforming a culture. And Jesus certainly understood how tough it was to change a religious church culture. In fact, he begins talking about this in Matthew, chapter nine, verse 35. And he'll continue through chapter ten and eleven. It's a big section. But he begins in chapter nine, verse 35 by saying what he says.
Vicki: Jesus went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom. When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.
Kent: Who was Jesus ministering to? What was the people group that he was speaking to?
Nathan: The jewish people.
Kent: Right. So he is speaking to the people of God. How is he ministering?
Vicki: It was just. He was just going out and talking to people that gathered all over the place, on mountainsides, by lakes. Just all over.
Kent: Yep.
Vicki: And as he did, speaking to him.
Kent: Right. Proclaiming the good news of the kingdom. So he's preaching why verse 36 ends. Because they were, what?
Vicki: Harassed and abused.
Kent: Harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd. So what is. Let's play with that metaphor. Why do sheep need shepherds?
Nathan: Well, sheep aren't smart, and they don't have any defensive measures. Right? So they often will either get infections, they will wander off into someplace where they. They fall off a cliff, or they get stuck in the cleft of a rock, or they get attacked by predators.
Kent: Right? So in this case, the predators would be whom? Understanding the larger context of this gospel as we've worked through it.
Vicki: The jewish leaders.
Kent: Yeah.
Nathan: Right. Which is ironic, because you'd think you'd be talking about the Romans, but he's not.
Kent: He's not. He's talking. They are harassed and they are helpless. And Jesus is trying to move the needle, right? He's going out to address this situation, but realizing his limitations, he says in verse 37 to his disciples what it says.
Vicki: Then he said to his disciples, the harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few, which is still true today. Ask the lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into the harvest field.
Kent: I've always heard this in talking about the need for missions and how we need more people to share the gospel. And that is certainly true. But Jesus specific context here, the workers he needs, because they're so few, are people who will work with those sheep, right? Who will take people who are facing abuse and have been hurt spiritually and morally with bad leadership. We need people who are willing to go in and help those people. So in chapter ten, Jesus workers are few. So he finds some. He appoints his disciples. And while he does give them authority to perform miracles, look how he defines their ministry. In verses five and following, says these.
Nathan: Twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions. Do not go among the gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. As you go, proclaim this message. The kingdom of heaven has come near.
Kent: Yeah, isn't that interesting? This text is specifically talking about ministry within the covenant people of God. That's. That means that there's something so wrong, the culture so toxic that the leaders of the jewish people have created over the centuries, that he needs seem tieled, six kind of ministers to go in and address this situation. And Jesus is pretty clear to your point, Nathan, this is not going to be easy.
Vicki: I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore, be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. Be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. He's not really good at recruiting. Brother will betray brother to death. And a father, his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. You will be hated by everyone because of me. And the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another.
Kent: Well, Nathan, you weren't exaggerating when you said that renovating a church culture is hard work. You're challenging what people have been taught. You are disagreeing with people's practices, with their values, with their traditions. Jesus is sending his disciples in to completely renovate, to strip the people of God away from what they have been taught and renew it by bringing in the kingdom of God. It's not the kind of jar description you'd see posted on churchstaffing.com, is it?
Nathan: No.
Vicki: No. And they, the church I used to go to, they were very good at recruiting, unlike this example. And they would talk about how you'll be rewarded and what the good things were and how it's only six months at a time. And then they recruit new people. And you think, oh, I can do that here. You're going to be flogged, you're going to be put to death, people are going to rebel against you. You'll be hated by everyone. Yeah. This is not a really compelling ad.
Nathan: No, it's similar to the contrary, is similar to a lot of agencies, how they recruit foster parents. So they have all these ads and commercials and oh, wow, look. Oh, this kid, now, he has a dad and everything's great and so wonderful, and everything's wonderful. But the reality is that it is hard to adopt kids out of the foster program and there is going to be difficulties and there's going to be hardships that will last a lifetime. And so what happens more often than not is you get new foster families, they start fostering kids, then they quit because they say, I'm out. This isn't what I was told this was going to be like. It's too hard versus what Jesus is doing here right up front saying, this.
Vicki: Is going to be hard.
Nathan: It's going to be hard.
Kent: Right. And as I look back, particularly at the sermon on the mount that we spent time on, it's because Jesus said the Pharisees were teaching an external righteousness and he's calling for an internal righteousness. It's really easy to say I have conquered adultery because I have never slept with someone other than my spouse until Jesus says, yes. But is there lust in your life and what are you doing to root it out? That's uncomfortable kind of teaching for people who have been taught the opposite, and there's pushback and that's hard. So Jesus may not be putting out honey covered invitation to ministry. He's telling this is going to be the hardest thing they can imagine. It'll be difficult beyond their imagination. But he goes on to say that while that's true and he's honest about it, if they are faithful to this difficult calling, Jesus promises to support those in the midst of that difficult ministry. He calls them into this ministry, but he says he will help them. Look at what he says. For example, in verse 19, he says.
Vicki: But when they arrest you, not if, but when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it at that time. You will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the spirit of your father speaking through you.
Kent: Don't you find that comforting?
Vicki: Yes.
Kent: You get in a congregational meeting and people are angry and they are challenging you because you're challenging the status quo. And you know that what you say next will determine whether you go forward or not. And God says, look, I love these people. I want you to help them. I'll give you the words. And not only that, he goes on in verses 28 through 31 he says.
Nathan: Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your father's care. And even the very hairs of your head are numbered. So don't be afraid. You are worth more than many sparrows.
Kent: Now I know it's difficult, but I'm gonna watch over you. You have my presence, my protection in the midst of this desperately challenging ministry assignment. And then in verse 32 and 33.
Vicki: He says, whoever acknowledges me before others I will also acknowledge before my father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my father in heaven.
Kent: Look, you're entering into the most difficult ministry possible, but I will honor you for that. And I will honor you in eternity. This may be a challenge, but I promise you a reward. I will acknowledge you before my father in heaven. And then Jesus goes on to say that while it's a very difficult ministry and I promise to help you, he goes on to say that he will reward those people who, in the midst of the church renovation struggle, stand behind and support the courageous leader preacher.
Vicki: He says, whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet's reward. And whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person's reward. And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of those little ones who is my disciple, truly, I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward.
Kent: So typically, when you're in a situation where you're trying to renovate a spiritually compromised church, sometimes you can find a remnant, right? Some who still yearn for the church that Christ wants this congregation to be, he will reward those people who are willing to stand with you in the midst of the tide of opposition. I think this should be an encouragement to everyone listening who is fearlessly and faithfully willing to minister to the harassed members of God's flock, the sheep without a shepherd. Because God who called you will always keep his word. Yes, it's difficult ministry, but he will support you and he will reward you for your efforts. And I know that's true not just because it's written in the Bible in this passage, but when we look at chapter eleven, because chapter eleven is where we see what he just said in chapter ten. In practice, that's what we see in John the Baptist in Matthew, chapter eleven, do you remember what God's purpose was for John the Baptist, what he was called to do?
Nathan: Well, he was calling people to repent, who repent of their sins and preparing them to see the messiah.
Kent: And who was he? Primarily working among?
Nathan: Israel, the jewish people.
Kent: Right. So he was given this tough assignment, right. To go in and try and change Israel, bring it back to the internal righteousness, the covenant people that they, God wants them to be, that they had been centuries before. He's calling them people of Israel to repent. And his minister is one of revival, renewal and restoration and renovation of Israel. And it was not easy. I mean, he didn't eat locust and wild honey because he enjoyed his snacks, but because his preaching ministry made him an outcast and an enemy of the religious establishment.
Nathan: Yeah. Camel hair shirts didn't catch on.
Kent: And it was a difficult assignment. He found it enormously challenging. We read about his successes, but we don't often see the angst that he faced in the midst of carrying out God's assignment. In Matthew eleven, starting in verse two and it's verse three, we catch up a glimpse of the angst that he was feeling.
Vicki: What we see, his questioning. It says, when John, who was in prison, heard about the deeds of the Messiah, he sent his disciples to ask him, are you the one who is to come? Or should we expect someone else?
Kent: Isn't that shocking?
Nathan: Behold the lamb of God who comes to take away the sins of the whole world.
Kent: Right?
Nathan: Right. Did I get it wrong? The voice of God from heaven, this is my beloved son. Did I hear wrong?
Kent: Right. One of the Jesus most ardent advocate as he began his ministry was John the Baptist. And now he's saying, are you really the messiah? That comes out of discouragement, that comes out of the pain and the agony involved in trying to renovate Israel spiritually. And how did Jesus respond?
Vicki: Jesus replied, go back and report to John what you hear and see. The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor. Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me.
Kent: Yeah. Jesus steps in to encourage him in the midst of this difficult assignment. He does not say it will be easy, but he does encourage him to hold fast. And as Jesus said to his disciples in chapter ten, because John was faithful to his difficult calling, Jesus supported him. In the midst of this discouragement and this questioning of everything that he thought to be true, Jesus supports him publicly. In verses seven, and following, says, as.
Nathan: John's disciples were leaving, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John. What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed swaying by the wind. If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes. No. Those who wear fine clothes are in kings palaces. Then what did you go out to see? A prophet. Yes, I tell you. And more than a prophet, this is the one about whom it is written. I will send my messenger ahead of you who will prepare your way before you. Truly, I tell you, among those born of women, there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist. Yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. He is the Elijah who was to come.
Kent: That's high praise, wouldn't you say?
Vicki: Yeah.
Nathan: Can't get much higher.
Kent: Yeah. Among those born of women, no one has been greater than John the Baptist.
Nathan: That's about everybody right there.
Kent: And he says it publicly at the moment when John the Baptist was questioning everything as deeply as possible, he's coming to his rescue. He's saying, john the Baptist is not a failure. He is a great man. He is like Elijah today. Yes, we may be in a difficult renovation assignment, but he will encourage us. He will support and defend us in the midst of that. And not only that, he promises to reward those who stand behind their courageous renovation leader. What do we find out in verse 28?
Vicki: And following, he says, come to me, all. You are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me. For I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
Kent: That said, to people who are in the midst of this renovation project, I love you, I care about you and I will reward you. Come to me when you're weary and burdened, trying to change this church culture. I will give you rest. For I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. I was recently able to spend a few days with my wife in Istanbul, Turkey. We marveled at the sight of buildings that were constructed thousands of years ago that had fallen into despair over disrepair over the centuries. But then people had carefully and expertly restored them again to their original glory. Tourists came from around the world to be odd with these buildings. Perhaps this is the calling that God has put on your life, not necessarily to build or start a new church, but to restore a neglected congregation or denomination to its former glory, to help it become what God intended it to be. This is an enormously difficult, an important assignment. And if you are willing to embrace your assignment, as John the Baptist did and the disciples did, Jesus will encourage you, support you, and reward those who stand with you. And if you persevere, you will discover that although your task is daunting, with his help, his yoke is easy and his burden is light.
Brian: So if you're discouraged trying to revive a spiritually dead congregation, how can you get encouraged when you feel hostility? If you remain faithful, Jesus will be your advocate with the father and reward you and those who support your ministry. I trust that today's discussion of God's word has been helpful and served as an encouragement to not just be hearers of the word, but doers together. Let's bring God's word to life, to our lives. This week, the Crosstalk podcast is a production of Crosstalk global, equipping biblical communicators so every culture hears God's voice. To find out more or to support the work of this ministry, please visit www.crosstalkglobal.org dot. Our next Crosstalk event is happening in Kansas. Help us train the next generation of biblical communicators. All you have to do is click donate in the show notes and make a donation of any size. You can also support this show by sharing it on your social media and telling your friends. Tune in next Friday as we continue our discussion through the gospel of Matthew. Be sure to join us.
Vicki: He's talking about in heaven. It's easy and light, right? I mean, it never gets easy in light on earth.
Kent: I think there's a sense in which, even in the midst of that difficult assignment, because he's with you, because he's.
Nathan: With us, following Jesus, Christianity is so much easier, I think, in certain regards, than any other religion, right? Following the dietary rules of our jewish friends or their practices, right? Like, oh, you know, it's interesting because Friday night's a great time to go to one of the big malls out here. It's like the 8th largest malls right across the river. And so I take the kids there, and my mentality is, oh, Friday night's horrible. No, no, go Friday night. Show up at about 05:00 because all of the massive jewish population in the area, they have to leave by six. They have to be home by six. So we go and it's usually a little packed and everything, you know, around there. And then by the time we're about ready to have dinner at the food court, it's just clearing out. It's like, where did everybody go, right? Like and Jesus doesn't make us do that. Or are Muslims. Right? Stop everything I'm doing five and pray five times a day. Prayers that don't mean anything to me and don't have any actual benefit one way or the other, spiritual or mental or emotional. Oh, man, that's a pain, right? You're driving your car, you got to get out and go pray. Like, it's such a pain, you know? Meanwhile, Jesus, he's saying, that's. That's not the kind of devotion I'm looking for. In another way, it's harder because, you know, everything we just talked about here. But I don't know. I. I think. I think his yoke is easy and his burden is light, is there's not no requirements to follow Jesus, but following him is a lot easier than. Than any other option out there.
Kent: And I find joy in being able to transform, help renovate a church back to what it should be. There is a. It is fun when you see that to begin to change and people really taking the gospel and the relationship with God, the responsibilities as a Christian seriously.
Vicki: You will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. He's not really good at recruiting.